A couple loose players in the blinds. One is a super rec. player.

Folded to me OTB. 3h 5c 6s 6 7s

What's our optimal open here? 356r, 357r, or 356r/7?


Thanks

I would think 753r would be the optimal holding. Only slightly worse badugi value for much stronger 5-card value.

Holding 4 cards gimps your badugi-making potential too much imo, take the extra card to try to make a dugi and/or pick up a deuce.

It's going to depend on what you end up against (how many players and how many they draw)

I would generally play 753, r, which is much better than 356,r. Yeh, if just the BB defends and draws 3, then I would draw 1.

thanks for the replies, guys.

yeah i probably need to be more cognizant of the fact that this is always dependent on how many opponents and what they draw.

but let's say we go HU with the super rec player and he draws 2. i would think 357r would be the way to go, most of the time, and 3567 if i knew him to be a very weak player. but really not sure.

I don’t agree w any of this.

i don't get it. I've had people ask this before and I guess I've just never considered it as an option (although there have been a few rare instances where I've broke off a 6 badugi to draw at a 7 badugi but those will be both rare and obvious when its correct to do so)


Basically, a 3 card 6 beats a 3 card 7. I mean sure if you could pick 456 or 237 id pick 237 but that's not the case here.

lots of people will play 3 card 7s, lots of people will take a 3 caerd 7 to showdown (draW 2 ON end). 356 beats a 3 card 7s, 357 often does not.

I watched your videos and if you say I am wrong, I am probably wrong. However, the 7 is a key card in 2-7. If you make a badugi, any badugi will probably be good and the 6 is probably not going to be the highest card in your badugi. So I would rather have 753,r than 653,r.

Think about what you’re saying. What card can you catch where the 357 draw is better than the 356?
2356 vs 2357
3456 vs 3457 (this one is the one, but still, badugi is stronger and both are weak 2-7 draws, but yeah one point for the 357 here)
3567 vs 3567
3568 vs 3578
3569 vs 3579
Etc

Ps: a 7 is not a “key card” in 2-7, maybe that’s where your assumptions are going wrong

I don't understand. Isn't 2357 also a lot better than 2356? Yes, if you hit an 8 or higher, you are better with the 6. However, you are drawing better to 7s if you catch a 2 or 4. You also make less straights if you catch 2 good cards. For example, if you catch both the 2 and 4, 23457 is a little better than 23456.''

I assume you agree that 357 is better than 356 is TD. With the badugi issues, it is possible 356 is slightly better.

You say a 7 is not a key card in TD. How do you make #1-4 hands without a 7?

Are you really suggesting a 6 is as good as a 7 in TD? In general, a 7 is the second best card after a 2, and 3,4, and 5 are better than 6. 357 obviously makes less straights and more #1-4 hands than 356.

Sure 86 is better than 87 and 96 than 97, but those issues are less important. It is possible you are right that 356 is better due to badugi value.

It is great have name players like you posting here, but the tone of your post, like I am a moron or something, is unnecessary. It also does not help in examining the issues.

Gentlemen life is too short to fight in the Draw Forum

I rank hands based upon their Badugi and 2TD potential giving the Badugi side a little extra and I have it basically as a virtual tie. 753 is a better 2TD start.

But even though I do give Badugi a little extra weight already I still probably choose the 356 here because I think it plays a little better

yeah i was thinking about the 2-7 side, originally.

but when i think about it further, the lower the dugi draw the easier the hand tends to play.

I think it’s the difference in the TWO WAY equity between 356 and 357, which makes the 356 a clearer choice.

Neither 356 nor 357 is a smooth 2-7 draw, so we are better off using the tri that can make nutty badugi, occasionally takes half UI, and is still able to make nutty 2-7 hands. And since we aren’t close to a made 2-7 hand w either D2, we are better off taking the superior tri.

To your other point - I don’t see any poster insinuating you’re a moron, or anything close to it. It’s just a few posters discussing strategy. You mentioned videos, name players; don’t let that stuff rent space in your head. And I’d think I’m getting the best of it if a poster really did call me a moron, in return for taking the time to post info that may help my game. My sincere and friendly advice would be to focus on the content in strategy threads and to keep posting, gl

As an unbiased observer I’d say there was a tone associated with the post followed with a somewhat nonsensical statement that the 357 isn’t stronger than 356 in 27TD side. So I can definitely see the annoyance factor here.

Please quote any post of mine where I said 357 isn’t stronger than 356 in 2-7. Maybe you guys get offended cuz you put words in my mouth?

Btw would be willing to bet 356 and 357 are within 10% of each other in EV preflop in 2-7. Anyone have a large database? “Nonsensical” pfft

Well just reading your post it doesn’t seem like you acknowledge that 2357 is stronger than 2356, if you just read it for what you wrote and you really went after the deuceblocker along with your trusted sidekick Tonto lol, I’m sure you know it is but it just seemed odd


I don’t think anyone thinks or stated that there is a huge difference which is why I tried to keep everyone from fighting! Pffft

But I would absolutely love it if someone has database results, not for this, just in general

i just dont understand why we care about the equity difference between 356 and 357 for 1/2 the pot or why we care about 2357 vs 2356.

Half the pot goes to the best badugi and we are going to sacrafice a hand that already has decent showdown value unimproved for a hand that does much poorer at the end. I think we can all agree that a 3 card 6 is signidicnatly stronger than 3 card 7 in badugi (even more so where A is hi).

Lots of the time we are going to make nothing in the 2-7 and we can have 3 card 6 and nothing or 3 card 7 and nothing. That difference in equity at showdown is obviously going to be stronger than the difference between 2346 and 2347 when we do catch a 2.

Heres a really easy way to look at is. 3456 badugi is a really strong hand. Its a very bad 2-7 draw.

Now you’re giving away too many secrets!

Like the jelly of the month club he’s the gift that keeps on giving the whole year

i was leaning 356r, but theres a lot of decisions in position with 356r/X on the flop and turn where x doesnt make badugi and i gotta decide when to d1 vs d2. i feel like i have good grasp on those spots but my winrate in b2 says i prob mess em up a bit too often. specifically when to keep 356r/9s and 356/Ts, obv. i think in this specific case since our 2-7 can be rough otherwise it makes sense to d1 early on in those spots, but when ur badugi tri is a lot smoother i have a hard time deciding, eg 234r/9 on flop or 234r/T on turn etc etc.

It’s a lot simpler than you are making it. Throw them all away and try to make a strong badugi.

i did that for a while but i guess i just ran bad? i'd be drawing at the dugi and find myself on turn d2 and the other person is pat or d1 betting down and i'd make poo and either overfold rivers or crycall and get shown the 9/9 and cry.

I understand that good badugis and sometimes tris that are bad TD draws are good. However, I still don't understand how we know that having a slightly better tri and badugi draw with 356 versus 357 is more important than drawing smoother for TD. It's not like you are throwing away your badugi chances going with 357. How do we know having a better tri is more important?