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Old 09-22-2017, 10:47 AM   #1
OtherMoachist
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Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

I'm on button, 6 handed. UTG and UTG+1 limp, cutoff raises.

I have A2458. No flush draw, in fact its a 5 high badugi..(and crap we have badacey in the mix) I 3- bet. Standard?

Blinds fold, rest call. 3-3-2 on draw to me.

I'm always D1 right? It's basically giving away my hand, but is there ever an argument for patting? Possibly on a 3-3-3 draw, I guess.

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Old 09-22-2017, 12:11 PM   #2
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

Do you see any merit to 3-betting on the button? Maybe getting UTG or UTG+1 to fold? Your hand plays much better against 1 or 2 players. If you isolate it to you and the cutoff and he stands pat, you draw 1, if he draws 1 or 2, you stand pat...
I see your location says "midwest". Where are you playing Archie with these qualifiers at?
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:40 PM   #3
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

Horseshoe Hammond. Indiana gaming board just recently approved it.

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Old 09-22-2017, 12:58 PM   #4
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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Originally Posted by RiverMeGently View Post
Do you see any merit to 3-betting on the button? Maybe getting UTG or UTG+1 to fold? Your hand plays much better against 1 or 2 players. If you isolate it to you and the cutoff and he stands pat, you draw 1, if he draws 1 or 2, you stand pat...
I see your location says "midwest". Where are you playing Archie with these qualifiers at?
My 3 bet was to limit the field. I have a good 1 card draw as well. I'm opposed to calling / drawing 1 in nearly every triple draw, pre-draw. Plus, depending on draws, patting was considered. Calling / patting is a bad idea, I think.

3 bet got blinds out, but in this high action game, rarely are limpers going to limp / fold.

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Old 09-22-2017, 01:51 PM   #5
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

I'm sorry, I misread that you did 3-bet before the first draw.. that is what I would have done as well.
Since both the limpers called I think it's correct to draw one, even to a 3-3-2 draw...
Maybe there's a scenario where you stand pat the first draw and hope that none of the players improve, and draw 3-3-2 again, then you definitely stand pat. but if any of them stand pat or take 1 you may have to draw.. and you lose the equity from the first draw you patted on...
Is this part of the mixed-game rotation, or a standalone game?
ive been up there to play several times, (i'm from indianapolis)
I played Archie in the mixed game rotation at the Rio during the WSOP, but it was a 99/8 qualifier...
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:56 PM   #6
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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Is this part of the mixed-game rotation, or a standalone game?
ive been up there to play several times, (i'm from indianapolis)
I played Archie in the mixed game rotation at the Rio during the WSOP, but it was a 99/8 qualifier...
Just added recently. Last Wednesday was first day I've been there since approved. It's in the mix now and will be a mainstay for a while.

At WSOP Rio they played it 9s to qualify, but at Bellagio they played it 6s. I guess there is a rare scenario where you can back into high with 6s to qualify.

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Old 09-22-2017, 03:17 PM   #7
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

Definitely I'd draw 1

Why would your hand be face up? You can easily have two pair or trips and strong draws

Think there are pros and cons to 3 betting but think its preferred
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:57 PM   #8
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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My 3 bet was to limit the field. I have a good 1 card draw as well. I'm opposed to calling / drawing 1 in nearly every triple draw, pre-draw. Plus, depending on draws, patting was considered. Calling / patting is a bad idea, I think.

3 bet got blinds out, but in this high action game, rarely are limpers going to limp / fold.

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Archie is a totally different animal in terms of preflop rules like "always 3b when taking 1". The fact is that a lot of a proper range to enter the pot is actually already D1s, unlike the low-only games. For example, you shouldn't even VPIP from EP with just like 3-to-a-wheel (although most do). Having said that, I'm ok with either 3b or flat call in this spot. Each one accomplishes certain things, and mixing it up is totally fine. Some examples of hands you always want to call vs always 3b with:
Always call ace high FD
Always raise 2p+. You also generally want to D1 with trips in these spots to disguise your hand UNLESS the pot is super-multiway and you really feel you need to maximize chances to fill up. When choosing a kicker, remeber that, in general, the more people are in the pot the more low cards are likely to be spoken for. Cards like nines and tens become great kickers in this spot. If you get HU, keeping a low kicker is often a good idea because the folds are likely to have consisted of a higher proportion of high cards.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:54 PM   #9
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

More experienced Archie players (not many in this lineup but you should already know who I'm talking about) are somewhat overly-inclined to disguise their hands, drawing one to trips or AA, that sort of thing, so there's a degree of ambiguity to any D1 start and I don't think you need to worry too much that people can read you for a smooth low draw. Yeah, those hands are in your range but so are a bunch of other hands. And if they read you for a low draw, there's not much they can do about it when you have position and your hand can take some heat.

So yeah, Draw one and feel good about it.
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Old 09-24-2017, 05:23 PM   #10
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

How come we arent patting as we are likely the only one to be going for low and we already have a made hand?
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:29 PM   #11
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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How come we arent patting as we are likely the only one to be going for low and we already have a made hand?
Because we are a favorite to improve on our hand by drawing 1 three times and we can scoop by making a wheel. It's also not a given that we are the only one going for low, and people can switch their draws if they catch perfect. Guy limp/calls utg with AA, draws 3 and makes A246 he might switch in a 4 way pot with aces likely dead. Guy drawing 2 can easily have a good hand like 345 as well and raising to buy the button and juice the pot up multiway.

No reason to "waste" such a strong draw by patting it right away.

Also, OP, our hand is way more disguised by 3betting and drawing 1 than calling and drawing 1. I feel like our hand is way more face up when we call otb and draw 1 than any other option. I usually draw 1 to my trips and obviously draw 1 with my two pairs, so having a strong draw in there is perfect balancing.

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More experienced Archie players (not many in this lineup but you should already know who I'm talking about) are somewhat overly-inclined to disguise their hands, drawing one to trips or AA,
Curious if you think you're giving up very much at all by drawing 1 to trips. I will generally draw 2 on first draw if I have kickers that aren't particularly live but then draw 1 after to make it possible I have some sort of other high hand that I can play fast and get paid off on the river.

Obviously drawing 1 with AA is awful but trips the only thing you're missing out on is that 1 outer for quads at the cost of potentially giving up a good kicker like a 9, T or J that is more likely live than not.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:18 PM   #12
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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How come we arent patting as we are likely the only one to be going for low and we already have a made hand?

Because it's A5 Archie, and ace high isn't good enough to qualify for half? It's ludicrous to pat with the additional wheel draw and made 5 badugi, duh.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:29 PM   #13
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

wut
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Old 09-24-2017, 10:41 PM   #14
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

So, embarrassingly, I posted this because I actually 3-bet and patted and bet the whole way down. As the draws went on, I realized I likely made a mistake and, of course, was far from comfortable with my hand.

I took half, but gotta imagine that, 4 handed, getting half is not holding up often enough to make it worth not drawing to scoop.

Plus, the point of the game is to scoop.

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Old 09-24-2017, 10:48 PM   #15
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

Patting 8642A is reasonable and break if you think someone made better, but I wouldn't pat such a strong hand from the get go (in position especially).
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:30 PM   #16
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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Curious if you think you're giving up very much at all by drawing 1 to trips. I will generally draw 2 on first draw if I have kickers that aren't particularly live but then draw 1 after to make it possible I have some sort of other high hand that I can play fast and get paid off on the river.
The main reason you shouldn't religiously draw 1 is that you're repping at best a hand that is fractionally worse than your actual hand (good two pair) that would require you to play pretty fast to knock out or charge low draws and good one-pair hands. You gain a lot of flexibility in a game where people are drawing 2 (to 345 for example) by playing a dominating high hand like trips the same way. It's extremely hard for the 345 or one-pair type hands to run you down, you will often get undue action from good two-pair hands and you can even sandbag until the big bet streets, getting multiple bets in position.

You are fractionally more likely to make quads drawing two and okay that's nice, but the main reason you shouldn't religiously draw one is that you retain ambiguity about the direction and strength of your hand by drawing two, and the difference between your actual hand's showdown strength (trips) and the hands you're keeping in your range (three low) will be worth more than representing say Aces-up. I mean, if you're representing Aces-up and you get JJ88 to fold, you'd prefer him to believe you could have 345 and call.

Now it's quite possible you don't have 345 in your D2 range, I generally don't, but unless and until your opponents have that specific read on you (which takes quite a few hands), they will see other players with hands like that and likely map your range accordingly.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:44 PM   #17
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

I guess I'm just confused how to make it seem like you can have those 2 card low draws in your hand yet still be betting each street. I mean waiting until a big bet street makes some sense if you think someone has a slightly worse high hand but I would think that charging the weakish low draws and stragglers early would make up for that pretty drastically.

I think I need to see an actual hh of what you're recommending for me to see why it would be particularly useful.
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:17 AM   #18
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

You won't be the one betting necessarily. The main argument for drawing two is the flexibility you get, especially in position, to play the hand passively for a couple of streets before coming out on the Turn. If you're drawing one you almost always take the betting initiative, which puts you out ahead of your hand a lot of the time. When your D1 hi hands happen to be best, you often get checked-to on the turn and get less in the pot when winning, but are unable to avoid c/r from improved hands. Playing trips as a D2 you get to avoid some traps and get a raise in more often when you're in good shape.

Here's an example. You open JJJ MP, SB 3b and you call. Draws 1:2 and SB leads flop. You call, 1:2 SB leads turn, you get to raise. A lot of sb's range is rundowns and two-pairs, and on the river (discounting bluffs) SB likely won't bet or call with an unimproved low draw, so the turn is your last chance to get an extra bet out of him. If SB has a two-pair hand or disguised trips he's not folding the river if there's any ambiguity about your hand's direction, and depending on your read of his hand you can even pat the turn to rep a low and get called really light.

If you religiously 4b pre, D1 and take the lead in this spot you expect anything weaker than strong two-pairs to fold early, and draws that have a lot of equity can play comfortably from behind without paying extra.

A lot of this game's strategy can be properly be derived from Hi draw, but the purpose of keeping a kicker with trips in Hi draw is to provide cover for D1 hands that have no showdown value, creating a range that could be anything from Quads to an open-ender. In Archie, there are way more D1 hands with no showdown value than in Hi draw (all low draws) so the D1 range is going to be unbalanced, and it's worth it to create ambiguity with other classes of starting hands.

Having said all that, you should still draw one with trips some of the time.
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Old 09-26-2017, 03:00 AM   #19
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

Very well said. You convinced me. Thanks!
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:53 PM   #20
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

What ways would you disquise your one way draws? I think it's too far to simply pat to play deceptively, because your hand is so two way with a near lock on one. So, I am curious what hands are draw one hands, and how much percentage is that? I'd think you'd draw one with trips, high two pairs, and ace-high flush draws to balance. But I am wondering what other hands?
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:21 PM   #21
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

3! Pre is standard, in a tough game call could be ok

Draw 1 seems right but I don't hate a pat, if we think only 1 opponent is going low, we are drawing to <4 scoop outs so we are not giving up much

Re: the drawing 1 or 2 with trips, I agree a mixed strategy is right, also we should be more inclined to draw 2 with a hand like kkk34 when we suspect there are less boat outs due to them being part of a lo draw
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:17 PM   #22
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Re: Archie spot (8/b, 6s high) Live

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3! Pre is standard, in a tough game call could be ok

Draw 1 seems right but I don't hate a pat, if we think only 1 opponent is going low, we are drawing to <4 scoop outs so we are not giving up much

Re: the drawing 1 or 2 with trips, I agree a mixed strategy is right, also we should be more inclined to draw 2 with a hand like kkk34 when we suspect there are less boat outs due to them being part of a lo draw
Pat right away is overly-fancy. 4 outs is more than you think when it's run x3. Also you do see a lot of straights and flushes in this game, and being able to beat those hands is huge.
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