Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Draw and Other Poker Discussion of poker games not covered elsewhere (e.g. badugi, draw, triple-draw, pineapple)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2018, 11:52 AM   #26
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Also thereís there is this to consider, say we draw 1 vs two guys with D2. If one of the D2 guys improves to a D1 we can often force the unimproved D2 to either fold or face multiple bets which is big value for us either way. If we are just pat itís just going to be one bet so no extra value and everyone stays in.
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 02:52 PM   #27
zoogenhiem
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,119
Re: A-5 100-200

Scotch can you please do an A-5 primer! I feel like my 2-7 and badugi are alright but I'd like to know how to transfer those skills to A-5 so I can play (aka punt off in) the mixed triple draw this summer at WSOP.

PS I Realy like RolledUp's last comment on accomplishing two things. Sort of like the (in)famous value bluff in hold em
zoogenhiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 03:22 PM   #28
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
The opportunity for your opponent to make mistakes is a large reason why this is a pat. Examples of mistakes an opponent could make include drawing to/patting a rougher 7 and folding a rough 6 draw. Note that I understand that these are exactly opposite mistakes - a lot of players seem to think that they're only allowed to induce one type of mistake. This is a spot where a player can go wrong in both directions. If you're not pat yet, their job is a lot easier
Rolled, I canít envision anyone would fold even the worst six draw to a pat.

Itís possible someone may draw to something like A257 though. But many would also draw two to A25 but then keep 7 if obtained
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #29
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Scotch can you please do an A-5 primer! I feel like my 2-7 and badugi are alright but I'd like to know how to transfer those skills to A-5 so I can play (aka punt off in) the mixed triple draw this summer at WSOP.

PS I Realy like RolledUp's last comment on accomplishing two things. Sort of like the (in)famous value bluff in hold em
Zoo, I did write a few articles on A-5. They are now on my countingouts.com site. I recently started a blog. The guy that runs the site said he put something on there where you can get email alerts if interested. Iím planning on putting a lot of quick hands and thoughts there.
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 06:42 PM   #30
RolldUpTrips
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 787
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Rolled, I canít envision anyone would fold even the worst six draw to a pat.

Itís possible someone may draw to something like A257 though. But many would also draw two to A25 but then keep 7 if obtained
Well let's think about this for a moment. Many people ITT want to draw discard this 7. If that's the case, 6543 should be in really, really bad shape against the perceived pat range. They might easily think they're drawing dead and fold.
RolldUpTrips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 07:07 PM   #31
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Well let's think about this for a moment. Many people ITT want to draw discard this 7. If that's the case, 6543 should be in really, really bad shape against the perceived pat range. They might easily think they're drawing dead and fold.
The four to a six is not folding pre unless action is insane with a bunch of tight players before action gets to him. And even then at least some may come in. So once he’s in there and the one guy is pat and it’s only one bet to him in a huge pot I doubt he’s going anywhere and nor should he imo

But not everyone ITT wants to discard the seven pre

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 03-09-2018 at 07:13 PM.
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 08:13 PM   #32
RolldUpTrips
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 787
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
The four to a six is not folding pre unless action is insane with a bunch of tight players before action gets to him. And even then at least some may come in. So once heís in there and the one guy is pat and itís only one bet to him in a huge pot I doubt heís going anywhere and nor should he imo

But not everyone ITT wants to discard the seven pre
As to the latter point, i obviously understand that some people here do want to pat. My point is not that he WILL fold a rough 6 draw at any point, but that he well MIGHT if he thinks we don't pat sevens (as many people, it seems, don't).

All of this is small, but, in combination, it's a lot and giving an opponent a chance to make more mistakes is a huge part of successful poker at high levels.
RolldUpTrips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2018, 08:53 PM   #33
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
As to the latter point, i obviously understand that some people here do want to pat. My point is not that he WILL fold a rough 6 draw at any point, but that he well MIGHT if he thinks we don't pat sevens (as many people, it seems, don't).

All of this is small, but, in combination, it's a lot and giving an opponent a chance to make more mistakes is a huge part of successful poker at high levels.
Anything might happen but I think itís an extremely rare parlay we are talking about and imo a negligible consideration for our decision
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2018, 05:51 PM   #34
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 4,090
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Attempt at logic: A2347 is #7 in A-5. 86532 is #7 in 2-7. As someone who has a decent amount of 2-7 experience, I'd always cap and pat probably any 8 and definitely any 86 given this action. Therefore I'd cap and pat A2347 in A-5.

Is this reasonable or bad logic?
There's a non-trivial point regarding the difference between A-5 and 2-7 that gets glossed over a lot. There are a lot more possible hands in 2-7 because suits and straights matter, so with the same possible card combinations in each, you end up with more possible hand ranks in 2-7 and more hands each of a smaller number of ranks in A-5.

The flushes make four more #1s, four more #2s, etc. By the time we get to #7, there are a significantly larger number of ways you can make a #7 or better than there are in 2-7. Additionally, draws to a particular rank of hand will have more outs, since straight cards don't counterfeit the hand in A-5. Both of these seem like small effects until you realize how they compound to give villains more draws to top-tier hands and more cards to complete those draws. Hands become more vulnerable as you continue up the scale. #7 is a very strong hand, but villains can have a lot more draws to beat #7 in A-5 than they can in 2-7 (where nobody should be drawing to 356 or 3458cccc for example), and the total number of hands rank 1-6 is larger.

This is one of the reasons A-5 is a stupid game. If somebody thinks he has a hand he can draw at, he almost always does. In Deuce, lots of draws look better than they are, so the potential for drawing mistakes is much greater, and conversely the potential for expert play exists. A-5 is a pretty dumb game in that regard.

That tidbit might illuminate the discussion of this hand, in that a good Seven is still a pretty vulnerable hand, so people want to draw smooth rather than pat it. Whenever you collate A-5 hands next to 2-7 hands you need to be aware that, say a #7 in Deuce is a lot more bulletproof than in A-5, despite there being only six better hands in each game.

I'm still capping and patting btw.
electrical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2018, 07:36 PM   #35
zoogenhiem
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,119
Re: A-5 100-200

Thanks for the detailed answer, electrical.

Tangent: if I were to play the $2500 mixed triple draw (2-7, A-5, badugi) at WSOP having played/watched a fair amount of 2-7TD, having played a decent amount of badugi but mostly HU, and never having played A-5, how much of a fish will I be compared to the field? Assume I do a nominal bit of studying on A-5 like I'm doing here beforehand.
zoogenhiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2018, 09:18 PM   #36
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 4,090
Re: A-5 100-200

If you know the mechanics of triple-draw and some general lowball strategy you should have no fear about playing the triple-trouble event. At my second table day one of this event, an elderly gentleman capped the action pre in a Badugi hand, then when it was time to draw, asked the dealer in earnest, “Does a pair mean anything?”

You’ll be fine.
electrical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 11:12 AM   #37
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Thanks for the detailed answer, electrical.

Tangent: if I were to play the $2500 mixed triple draw (2-7, A-5, badugi) at WSOP having played/watched a fair amount of 2-7TD, having played a decent amount of badugi but mostly HU, and never having played A-5, how much of a fish will I be compared to the field? Assume I do a nominal bit of studying on A-5 like I'm doing here beforehand.
You will be fine, an important topic to make sure you hit is to make sure you know what to pat and break after the second draw

I want to play this too but it’s bumping up against the Collusus tourney which I think means no mixed cash which is my preference
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 07:10 PM   #38
RolldUpTrips
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 787
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
If you know the mechanics of triple-draw and some general lowball strategy you should have no fear about playing the triple-trouble event. At my second table day one of this event, an elderly gentleman capped the action pre in a Badugi hand, then when it was time to draw, asked the dealer in earnest, ďDoes a pair mean anything?Ē

Youíll be fine.
You're right but also wrong. The beginning of the tournament is definitely like this but the late stages is full of tough players. I'm not saying you shouldn't play or whatever, but be aware that the skill level changes big time as you go.
RolldUpTrips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 02:00 AM   #39
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 24,300
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Thanks for the detailed answer, electrical.

Tangent: if I were to play the $2500 mixed triple draw (2-7, A-5, badugi) at WSOP having played/watched a fair amount of 2-7TD, having played a decent amount of badugi but mostly HU, and never having played A-5, how much of a fish will I be compared to the field? Assume I do a nominal bit of studying on A-5 like I'm doing here beforehand.
A-5 isn't a complicated game but it is the swingiest of the 3, as long as you are mentally prepared you should be fine
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 12:09 PM   #40
zoogenhiem
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,119
Re: A-5 100-200

Sorry to derail this thread with questions about WSOP, but do SNG satelittes run at the WSOP for mixed triple draw (or any of the more banana games, like dealers choice, 2-7td, etc)?
zoogenhiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 07:09 PM   #41
DeathDonkey
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DeathDonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale
Posts: 12,406
Re: A-5 100-200

Of note: the mixed triple draw this year will be one of several events with one re entry. So it could potentially be a 5k buyin
DeathDonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 07:57 PM   #42
zoogenhiem
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,119
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Of note: the mixed triple draw this year will be one of several events with one re entry. So it could potentially be a 5k buyin
As does the $1500 dealers choice, $2500 big bet mix, and $1500 O8 mix as far as mixed game events do. Also notably the $1500 and $10,000 2-7 NLSD events, plus some NLHE and PLo events.
zoogenhiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2018, 12:16 AM   #43
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 4,090
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Sorry to derail this thread with questions about WSOP, but do SNG satelittes run at the WSOP for mixed triple draw (or any of the more banana games, like dealers choice, 2-7td, etc)?
A Super Satellite runs religiously for any $10k event the day before using the same format. Smaller events usually there are sit-n-go satellites the day of the event, but they don't run unless there's interest so there may only be a few of them.
electrical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2018, 10:32 AM   #44
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Putting $100 on a number on a roulette table is a super satellite that only takes seconds to play
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2018, 10:30 PM   #45
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 4,090
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Putting $100 on a number on a roulette table is a super satellite that only takes seconds to play
For what they are, the WSOP Supers are a pretty decent structure. Fast but you start with enough chips to build a stack and play normal poker. I think the non-flop game Supers are terrific value.
electrical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2018, 11:32 PM   #46
ScotchOnDaRocks
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 1,601
Re: A-5 100-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
For what they are, the WSOP Supers are a pretty decent structure. Fast but you start with enough chips to build a stack and play normal poker. I think the non-flop game Supers are terrific value.
Good to know, may take a look sometime

But I was just kidding around, didnít mean for my comment to possibly pass judgment on the value of the satellites
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online