Also there’s there is this to consider, say we draw 1 vs two guys with D2. If one of the D2 guys improves to a D1 we can often force the unimproved D2 to either fold or face multiple bets which is big value for us either way. If we are just pat it’s just going to be one bet so no extra value and everyone stays in.

Scotch can you please do an A-5 primer! I feel like my 2-7 and badugi are alright but I'd like to know how to transfer those skills to A-5 so I can play (aka punt off in) the mixed triple draw this summer at WSOP.

PS I Realy like RolledUp's last comment on accomplishing two things. Sort of like the (in)famous value bluff in hold em

Rolled, I can’t envision anyone would fold even the worst six draw to a pat.

It’s possible someone may draw to something like A257 though. But many would also draw two to A25 but then keep 7 if obtained

Zoo, I did write a few articles on A-5. They are now on my countingouts.com site. I recently started a blog. The guy that runs the site said he put something on there where you can get email alerts if interested. I’m planning on putting a lot of quick hands and thoughts there.

Well let's think about this for a moment. Many people ITT want to draw discard this 7. If that's the case, 6543 should be in really, really bad shape against the perceived pat range. They might easily think they're drawing dead and fold.

The four to a six is not folding pre unless action is insane with a bunch of tight players before action gets to him. And even then at least some may come in. So once he’s in there and the one guy is pat and it’s only one bet to him in a huge pot I doubt he’s going anywhere and nor should he imo

But not everyone ITT wants to discard the seven pre

As to the latter point, i obviously understand that some people here do want to pat. My point is not that he WILL fold a rough 6 draw at any point, but that he well MIGHT if he thinks we don't pat sevens (as many people, it seems, don't).

All of this is small, but, in combination, it's a lot and giving an opponent a chance to make more mistakes is a huge part of successful poker at high levels.

Anything might happen but I think it’s an extremely rare parlay we are talking about and imo a negligible consideration for our decision

There's a non-trivial point regarding the difference between A-5 and 2-7 that gets glossed over a lot. There are a lot more possible hands in 2-7 because suits and straights matter, so with the same possible card combinations in each, you end up with more possible hand ranks in 2-7 and more hands each of a smaller number of ranks in A-5.

The flushes make four more #1s, four more #2s, etc. By the time we get to #7, there are a significantly larger number of ways you can make a #7 or better than there are in 2-7. Additionally, draws to a particular rank of hand will have more outs, since straight cards don't counterfeit the hand in A-5. Both of these seem like small effects until you realize how they compound to give villains more draws to top-tier hands and more cards to complete those draws. Hands become more vulnerable as you continue up the scale. #7 is a very strong hand, but villains can have a lot more draws to beat #7 in A-5 than they can in 2-7 (where nobody should be drawing to 356 or 3458cccc for example), and the total number of hands rank 1-6 is larger.

This is one of the reasons A-5 is a stupid game. If somebody thinks he has a hand he can draw at, he almost always does. In Deuce, lots of draws look better than they are, so the potential for drawing mistakes is much greater, and conversely the potential for expert play exists. A-5 is a pretty dumb game in that regard.

That tidbit might illuminate the discussion of this hand, in that a good Seven is still a pretty vulnerable hand, so people want to draw smooth rather than pat it. Whenever you collate A-5 hands next to 2-7 hands you need to be aware that, say a #7 in Deuce is a lot more bulletproof than in A-5, despite there being only six better hands in each game.

I'm still capping and patting btw.

Thanks for the detailed answer, electrical.

Tangent: if I were to play the $2500 mixed triple draw (2-7, A-5, badugi) at WSOP having played/watched a fair amount of 2-7TD, having played a decent amount of badugi but mostly HU, and never having played A-5, how much of a fish will I be compared to the field? Assume I do a nominal bit of studying on A-5 like I'm doing here beforehand.

If you know the mechanics of triple-draw and some general lowball strategy you should have no fear about playing the triple-trouble event. At my second table day one of this event, an elderly gentleman capped the action pre in a Badugi hand, then when it was time to draw, asked the dealer in earnest, “Does a pair mean anything?”

You’ll be fine.

You will be fine, an important topic to make sure you hit is to make sure you know what to pat and break after the second draw

I want to play this too but it’s bumping up against the Collusus tourney which I think means no mixed cash which is my preference

You're right but also wrong. The beginning of the tournament is definitely like this but the late stages is full of tough players. I'm not saying you shouldn't play or whatever, but be aware that the skill level changes big time as you go.

A-5 isn't a complicated game but it is the swingiest of the 3, as long as you are mentally prepared you should be fine

Sorry to derail this thread with questions about WSOP, but do SNG satelittes run at the WSOP for mixed triple draw (or any of the more banana games, like dealers choice, 2-7td, etc)?

Of note: the mixed triple draw this year will be one of several events with one re entry. So it could potentially be a 5k buyin

As does the $1500 dealers choice, $2500 big bet mix, and $1500 O8 mix as far as mixed game events do. Also notably the $1500 and $10,000 2-7 NLSD events, plus some NLHE and PLo events.

A Super Satellite runs religiously for any $10k event the day before using the same format. Smaller events usually there are sit-n-go satellites the day of the event, but they don't run unless there's interest so there may only be a few of them.

Putting $100 on a number on a roulette table is a super satellite that only takes seconds to play

For what they are, the WSOP Supers are a pretty decent structure. Fast but you start with enough chips to build a stack and play normal poker. I think the non-flop game Supers are terrific value.

Good to know, may take a look sometime

But I was just kidding around, didn’t mean for my comment to possibly pass judgment on the value of the satellites