i'm dealt A2347 in BB. 7handed game
folded around to best player in game who raises from co. button who is considered the fish 3 bets.

would u cap or call?

would u pat or draw out out of position?

I’d cap and draw 1

Assuming one 5 and one 6 dead we have a 52% chance to make same hand or better after three draws and have more implied odds

assume for a second after u cap, the original raiser folds, 3bettor calls. still drawing one?

Closer but still drawing 1. Maybe only one 5 or 6 is dead.

Anyhow, haven’t modeled it out and it may very well be correct but don’t see people raise/fold too often in draw games. I presume he just had something like A2 no blockers and felt like he was going too much uphill and was not going to realize equity.

oh...he didnt fold, was just curious if that changes the way u play it

i paused for a second when facing the 3 bet. deebating whether to just call draw 1. raise adn pat or raise and draw 1. ultimately decided to raise just in case i could get it HU. asked the initial raiser what he would do with my hand. and mentioned i capped to see if he'd fold "in holdem, maybe i'd fold for 2 more , but in a draw game....never"

OOP and against 2 opponents drawing one i thot was the right play. ur point on implies seems to push this one over into an easy 1-draw. HU, i think i'm more inclined to pat

Cap is easy here purely for value especially if it is a LAG fish. Even if it’s a passive fish you are more than likely carving up equity from OR.

If OR is at the bottom of his range with something like 456 I believe it is correct to fold. I try and be flexible in my thinking. Being in the middle of what is most likely some combo of D1/pats is an awful place to be regardless of the pot odds you may be getting. Funny he mentioned he might fold in Hold’em but not draw. In Hold’em any hand can turn into the nuts. In draw he is a long shot to make a rough hand that might just be a payoff hand.

If against one player while it may be closer I still think D1 is clearly the right play

Depends so much on what "is considered the fish" means. He doesn't have to be holding a seven very often for drawing to become really bad.

You are a favorite to gain the same hand or better after three draws and you will realize your equity either way and your opponent will not really be any more likely to fold had you pat instead of drawing one. Please explain how drawing can be really bad.

Grunching.

Even if you are against a good D1 (wheel or 6 draw) and a premium D2 you are a whopper favorite (50 percent equity pat, slightly worse drawing) whether you break or draw, so capping is clearly correct. You will actually be sacrificing around 2 percent native equity 3-ways if you draw, but with two opponents you will have an implied position to take advantage of the times you bink, much less likely HU.

If the hand plays HU and you pat, you are almost 2:1 favorite over a single opponent D1, flipping if you draw. Patting HU is clearly best from an equity standpoint, and you will also get some folds on the turn those times villain is D2 rather than D1.

Card removal obviously matters, but it is so easy to get removal candidates wrong that I prefer not to rely on sims incorporating them. Let's say the opener folds to action, does that mean he folded 456, A27, 367 or 444AA? If you have a very accurate read on a player's range, you can begin to make some adjustments, but for the most part I prefer to make no assumptions rather than misleading ones.

Another way to say this is that you are a bigger favorite to make the same hand or worse, and if you brick out you are not going to realize the equity you abandoned by drawing. A player makes money in only two ways, when a worse hand calls or when an opponent surrenders equity. In this case, we'd be the one surrendering equity HU.

From a pure equity standpoint, pat or drawing vs 2 opponents is very close. You will be surrendering a couple percent equity to draw, but when you improve over your starting hand you will also sometimes win extra because you will get paid-off lighter and can get a raise or c/r in while winning. Depending on other game factors you may prefer one decision over another.

But HU it's unlikely you'll hit the parlay of making a better hand and getting extra action enough to pay for the 10-15 percent equity edge you break off when you draw.

Electrical, where are you getting the 10-15 equity edge that we are breaking off?

Galts is broken so I’m playing around with Troutulator on deuce with 87432. It depends how many cards we share but I see 0 -8%.

Let’s not get sidetracked talking about when he has pat 75 and 76 because that only happens .55% of time and he has a 65 or better .28% of time

HU I like patting the smooth 7 pre vs the fishy BTN (who is likely bad in a loose way) for the following reasons:

- If BTN makes a rough 7 on the 1st or 2nd draw, he will likely keep it and be drawing dead. He is much more likely to misread our pre-draw pat range than a solid player.

- We won't always get to draw 3 times to a wheel. Hero will usually pat a smooth 8 after the 2nd draw, if BTN is still drawing. Prob even a 9 if BTN is still drawing 2 on the 2nd draw.

OP gave us important info when he identified BTN as the fish. Had CO called the cap, I'm still inclined to pat pre, due to the presence of the BTN.

Though 3 ways OOP against 2 solid players, I'm going to break and trade the made hand that can't bet the river for the implied odds.

I'd cap and pat, but agree that it is very close with draw 1

I’ve evolved to pat this HU but always draw 1 OOP against two players

yes...previous points cement that for me

what if your in position and see ur oppoents both draw 2? both draw 1? s

Think I draw 1 in both cases still.

When I'm not sure I error on the side towards implied odds.

I can get Galt's to work once in a while (oh the irony, a thing named Galt that doesn't work...) and when I did I ran a couple of scenarios, vs two D2s (always >70% pat, 50-55% drawing ), vs D1, D2 (50% pat 40-45% drawing) and HU vs D1 (> 60% pat, 55% drawing)

So, yeah, more like 5-10% you're surrendering, a little over 15% percent at worst, but still seems like enough to pat HU or if two villains are drawing multiple cards.

Thanks man, I was only looking at HU pat against at D1. So on average breaking off around 5% is what I was seeing too. I think it’s close. If you get played back at later in the hand you will have some tough decisions. We shouldn’t avoid a certain line that is clearly best just to avoid some potential tough decisions but I’m not sure if breaking is clearly best. But I kind of got swayed to pat it based on some comments here and further thinking.

Very beginner A-5 question: what's the average winning hand in this game? Say in your typical live 6-handed mix game. I'm guessing a weak 7?

Attempt at logic: A2347 is #7 in A-5. 86532 is #7 in 2-7. As someone who has a decent amount of 2-7 experience, I'd always cap and pat probably any 8 and definitely any 86 given this action. Therefore I'd cap and pat A2347 in A-5.

Is this reasonable or bad logic?

Reasonable but think it goes a little further than lining up the two charts. I feel it’s more like we have 87432 in deuce...but I’m going to look more into this when I have more time

Certainly an obvious difference is that 6532 in deuce is a straight draw with only 4 outs to a better hand while A234 has eight

And just to add with the A234 we have outs to the #1 and #2 which is really why I’m ok with the equity hits. Greatest hit is against two D2s but 50-55% 3 way still great plus potential be on right side of coolers later

The opportunity for your opponent to make mistakes is a large reason why this is a pat. Examples of mistakes an opponent could make include drawing to/patting a rougher 7 and folding a rough 6 draw. Note that I understand that these are exactly opposite mistakes - a lot of players seem to think that they're only allowed to induce one type of mistake. This is a spot where a player can go wrong in both directions. If you're not pat yet, their job is a lot easier

In addition to the significant equity edge we have with our pat hand, getting folds from hands with equity is really big. If we cap and villain can fold the turn with UI D2 vs a pat that's a huge win. He's rarely folding in that spot if we are still drawing on the flop.

People don’t fold UI D2 on th turn vs a D1?

They fold a lot there in my experience and they should.

Personally I’m never calling with a D2 against a D1. If conditions are optimal such as I paired a few times I’ll raise and snow but I’m not calling. You will get calls from a D1 four card eight but that’s standard and not a D2.