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Draw and Other Poker Discussion of poker games not covered elsewhere (e.g. badugi, draw, triple-draw, pineapple)

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Old 01-03-2018, 10:38 PM   #26
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: $40/$80 Badacey Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by LETIGRA View Post
Scotch just wrote a killer Badugi article in the magazine..

https://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/...ugi-part-6.php

Where can we discuss this badugi series? I have checked in 'discuss the magazine forum' and can not find a spot. Maybe we can start a new thread here for discussion?

Also, sorry to hijack the thread but my favorite part in your article is when you are drinking and get people to think you think you have a badugi. Man I cracked up that is such a killer line! You can't do that on seals tho b/c it reads your hand at bottom right but great live play! HAHAHAHA
But yeah I think it’s important to make people think you just misread your hand. Some like to look smart and sophisticated at the poker table, I find that being a drinking fool is more profitable

It works in reverse too, if you suspect a snow and call with a good tri you can also pretend like you thought you had a badugi, “but oh I win anyway”
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:19 AM   #27
MacauBound
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Re: $40/$80 Badacey Hand

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Let's take it from the beginning, I assumed villain would re-raise me pre-draw me with any three to a wheel(unsuited). Maybe this is the first assumption people may have a problem with but I would for various reasons even though I'm probably a slight equity dog against the HJ raising range.

Then the flop went check/check. If I had A23 my default would be to bet unimproved for again a variety of reasons. But would just take the free card with an unimproved lesser tri.

I just mentioned the 345 because it fits both patterns and because mathematically since I have A26 the 3s, 4s, and 5s are more likely.

Then I asked opinions if people would fold an unimproved 345 to a bet. The 345 is a good assumption to model him having because if my bet is not going to be profitable against 345 it surely is not going to be against something stronger. When you model something, it's best to first model the fringes.

I wanted to look deeper than "he might fold 345 but he's going to improve a lot and punish you". My goal was to get a consensus on what his calling range (and punish range) may be then figure out how often he will have those hands mathematically and make some observations.

Anything off the wall so far?
Prob referring to your perceptions of how villains play these split-pot draw lowball games. I think you're overestimating FE post-draw in these games. Snowing rarely works, as these are by far the most showdown-bound draw games. Like otr posted, even if you pat after 2nd draw and villain is UI, he will often rightly put you on an A-5 hand and call/D2 to try to make a badugi for the chop and/or bink for the scoop every now and then. And that's w 345xx, which is prob the bottom third of his pre draw range.

Betting UI tris OOP (or in position) will cost you money in Ba/Bd against thinking players. Way too easy for villains to improve to nutty one way hands or decent two way hands (both of which can raise after it goes 2:2 if they know your betting range consists of UI hands) and you'll just get punished for bloating the pot without enough value.

As played, the river is a bet. You are a decent favorite to have the best A-5 and you scoop the (A35)9T type hands that will always call. Don't expect any badugi to fold though.

I also appreciate your articles and the promotion of some funky games.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:05 AM   #28
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: $40/$80 Badacey Hand

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Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
Prob referring to your perceptions of how villains play these split-pot draw lowball games. I think you're overestimating FE post-draw in these games. Snowing rarely works, as these are by far the most showdown-bound draw games. Like otr posted, even if you pat after 2nd draw and villain is UI, he will often rightly put you on an A-5 hand and call/D2 to try to make a badugi for the chop and/or bink for the scoop every now and then. And that's w 345xx, which is prob the bottom third of his pre draw range.

Betting UI tris OOP (or in position) will cost you money in Ba/Bd against thinking players. Way too easy for villains to improve to nutty one way hands or decent two way hands (both of which can raise after it goes 2:2 if they know your betting range consists of UI hands) and you'll just get punished for bloating the pot without enough value.

As played, the river is a bet. You are a decent favorite to have the best A-5 and you scoop the (A35)9T type hands that will always call. Don't expect any badugi to fold though.

I also appreciate your articles and the promotion of some funky games.
Yeah that’s probably it, but I think in this particular situation I think we would both be making bad calls. Do you call with 345 here? Would you check/call A26?

I wanted to gather some opinions about calling/ raising ranges, figure out mathematical probabilities of attaining these hands, and compare to price we have for stealing and make observations.

OOP unimproved I hardly ever consider betting unless I hit pair cards all of my draws. I don’t think I’ve ever snowed in these games. I agree with all of that.

On river the more I think about it the more I feel I have a check/call. Even if I’m equally likely to scoop as opposed to being scooped I’m paying two bets usually when scooped and only gained when I scoop. But I think I’m scooped more often.

Thanks, I’m glad people enjoy the articles. I do hope they bring new people to the games.
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:32 PM   #29
LETIGRA
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Re: $40/$80 Badacey Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
It works in reverse too, if you suspect a snow and call with a good tri you can also pretend like you thought you had a badugi, “but oh I win anyway”
lol these jokes are why I am loving badugi. I'm gonna try to start a thread if you don't mind taking questions on the series. thanks!
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:03 PM   #30
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: $40/$80 Badacey Hand

I’m still thinking about this hand, many seem to be drawing parallels to regular 2-7 2/2 spots when thinking about this hand.

But to me there are a few key differences.

1. Pot is typically bigger because in 2-7 players often call with two card draws but in split pot games they are more often reraised. Not all of the time but now more often.

2. Snowing is much less effective. In 2-7 you can take advantage of a player betting with wild abandon in a 2/2 by not only holding back good hands but also c/r patting as a bluff sometimes. In the split pot games that loses much of its allure because a player might already be sitting on a tri they will bring to showdown.

3. Player in position appears to have a wildly profitable bet even if he knows OOP is checking all of his hands and he will get c/r. Pot odds dictate that the OOP will not make hands often enough and only around 4% will they be bone crushers both ways.

4. Player OOP has more of an incentive to bet improvement. You may have a pretty strong hand one way but still want your opponent to fold. If you bet out they may just fold, but if you c/r they are getting greater odds and feel priced in now. And if they don’t fold to the original bet that’s ok because presumably you have an equity advantage. Player OOP still can hold some hands back though, maybe the bonecrushers both ways to c/r and then some marginal hands to c/c. Your leading range still contains hands like A234 and (A34)26 so there is still strength.
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