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Old 10-01-2017, 10:40 AM   #1
ScotchOnDaRocks
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40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

Folded to me on button and I open with 347. Old tight solid gent in BB calls. Both draw two. I pick up 2347 and bet after he checks. We both draw one on 2nd draw.

I get a 97432.

He bets and I call.

He pats and I pat(?)

River goes check/check

I suspect I may have played this bad
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:12 AM   #2
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

You can bet the river once he checks, rest of the hand looks ok
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:36 PM   #3
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

Should be the river, and take note of the fact that he pats a Jack or weaker potentially.
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Old 10-01-2017, 02:21 PM   #4
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

I'd raise after the 2nd draw some of the time, and as played, betting/checking after 3rd draw is player dependent.
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Old 10-01-2017, 02:43 PM   #5
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

Out of curiosity, was this in Vegas? In a mixed game?
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:51 PM   #6
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

i wouldn't bet the river
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:50 PM   #7
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

I like the river check in a live game vs a tight old guy. Amazing how often you will see 876 or 95/6 here. Turn is honestly pretty player dependent. There are some in my games that I would raise here, some that I would call and break, and some that I would pat.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:21 PM   #8
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

If this happened in my 2-7TD home game in which players tend towards loose passive and often overvalue hands, I would definitely raise a 97 for value on the turn, especially with such a smooth redraw. If it goes 3bet/pat, I break and would call the river if I made a 97 or better. If it goes call/pat, I would break and maybe call river with a ten too. The downside of a turn raise is if he has a ten or jack with a redraw that correctly breaks but would have patted drawing dead. Even so, even when your opponent does break correctly, you still got them to put additional money in behind.

As played, I think it's still got to be a pat because he could have a T- or J-lo. I'd break a T7 for sure or maybe a 98 if I had such a smooth redraw. On the river, I'd check back expecting to win a lot but not get called by worse enough to make it worth betting. Then again, there are some players who are incapable of check/folding a pat hand (tbh I tend to be one of them) so betting river is probably close. But against a decently competent opponent, they know the bottom of our patting range is around our exact hand, so the only hands that we beat that call you for sure are 975 and 976. I would not be surprised to see a 98 fold from my limited experience.

N.B. I'm very much a learning player in this game, so please tear apart my reasoning.
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:30 PM   #9
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
I like the river check in a live game vs a tight old guy. Amazing how often you will see 876 or 95/6 here. Turn is honestly pretty player dependent. There are some in my games that I would raise here, some that I would call and break, and some that I would pat.
yeah question is what you do readless, i'm inclined to think raising is best with the intention of breaking if they continue to pat.

i feel uncomfortable freezing any 9 against an old guy, i guess i'd only freeze the ones that are too rough to break.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:11 PM   #10
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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If this happened in my 2-7TD home game in which players tend towards loose passive and often overvalue hands, I would definitely raise a 97 for value on the turn, especially with such a smooth redraw. If it goes 3bet/pat, I break and would call the river if I made a 97 or better. If it goes call/pat, I would break and maybe call river with a ten too. The downside of a turn raise is if he has a ten or jack with a redraw that correctly breaks but would have patted drawing dead. Even so, even when your opponent does break correctly, you still got them to put additional money in behind.

As played, I think it's still got to be a pat because he could have a T- or J-lo. I'd break a T7 for sure or maybe a 98 if I had such a smooth redraw. On the river, I'd check back expecting to win a lot but not get called by worse enough to make it worth betting. Then again, there are some players who are incapable of check/folding a pat hand (tbh I tend to be one of them) so betting river is probably close. But against a decently competent opponent, they know the bottom of our patting range is around our exact hand, so the only hands that we beat that call you for sure are 975 and 976. I would not be surprised to see a 98 fold from my limited experience.

N.B. I'm very much a learning player in this game, so please tear apart my reasoning.
How is the turn raise for value. For starters lots of tight old solid olayers don't lead J/T oop here they check and pat when it goes check checks. If he does have a 98, T or J he's probably going to break it off so sure we gain a fraction of a bdt in equity And lose way more when he was going to pat dead.

Sure there is some benefit about brekaing correctly when we raise and he pats but this is also offset by the times we get 3 bet and the times he bluff/pats a 9/T and we break.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:58 PM   #11
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Out of curiosity, was this in Vegas? In a mixed game?
Mix in AC
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:00 PM   #12
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
i wouldn't bet the river
Yeah I felt ok with my decision to not bet the river.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:07 PM   #13
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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yeah question is what you do readless, i'm inclined to think raising is best with the intention of breaking if they continue to pat.

i feel uncomfortable freezing any 9 against an old guy, i guess i'd only freeze the ones that are too rough to break.
Yeah he is a new opponent to me, seemed like I was making a mistake because my draw was so good. So I did not feel good about it staying pat.

Now is it a call or raise? Well I was uncomfortable freezing this guy but I should raise just in case he is leading worse pat hands, right? know I am beating them but if I called I'd be breaking anyway.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:07 PM   #14
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

There are some minor ambiguities in how the hand was relayed, but assume vil calls oop pre, first draw is 2:2, second draw is 1:1, your decision is for the last draw after villain leads.

When a player of the type you describe flats in defense, then improves to D1 and doesn't bet, a lot of his range is poor Eight draws like 3678 (occasionally hands like 3457). When he leads the turn you can assume he's completed a hand, and if his standards don't allow him to bet an 87 draw on the flop you can reasonably presume he's made something like an 87, the hand he was drawing to, and not say a Ten or Jack.

Normally I am not a fan of raising "for information," because in non-draw games you can't affect your opponent's showdown range by raising. In draw games though, you can induce a break that improves your information edge even if it doesn't change the value of your hand. Here. if you raise the turn and villain calls/pats you are almost certainly behind and should draw. His un-breakable hands will usually be 87 with a gutshot or something that he has decided to ride out. If he calls/breaks your pat 97 is a pretty solid favorite over the kind of draw we expect him to have, and even though you were ahead of most of the hands he breaks, you have no way of knowing that and could make a bad break if he stood pat.

River action seems consistent with this type of player and a hand like an 87 oop, taking actions at face value and presuming no great expertise on his part. If there are pertinent prior showdowns you reassess of course.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:35 PM   #15
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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Originally Posted by electrical View Post
There are some minor ambiguities in how the hand was relayed, but assume vil calls oop pre, first draw is 2:2, second draw is 1:1, your decision is for the last draw after villain leads.

When a player of the type you describe flats in defense, then improves to D1 and doesn't bet, a lot of his range is poor Eight draws like 3678 (occasionally hands like 3457). When he leads the turn you can assume he's completed a hand, and if his standards don't allow him to bet an 87 draw on the flop you can reasonably presume he's made something like an 87, the hand he was drawing to, and not say a Ten or Jack.

Normally I am not a fan of raising "for information," because in non-draw games you can't affect your opponent's showdown range by raising. In draw games though, you can induce a break that improves your information edge even if it doesn't change the value of your hand. Here. if you raise the turn and villain calls/pats you are almost certainly behind and should draw. His un-breakable hands will usually be 87 with a gutshot or something that he has decided to ride out. If he calls/breaks your pat 97 is a pretty solid favorite over the kind of draw we expect him to have, and even though you were ahead of most of the hands he breaks, you have no way of knowing that and could make a bad break if he stood pat.

River action seems consistent with this type of player and a hand like an 87 oop, taking actions at face value and presuming no great expertise on his part. If there are pertinent prior showdowns you reassess of course.
I think I relayed all of the actions in the hand, but you do raise a very good point about how he did not lead out after improving to a one card draw after we both drew two on first round.

That makes it seem less likely that he would lead with a hand worse than mine on the turn. Would that be accurate to say? Given that shouldn't we just call and draw?
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:27 AM   #16
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

You could flat and draw, but in addition to the possibility he's betting worse (where drawing would be a mistake) there are other hands he could break, so raising is reasonable. My point about the raise being this is the rare case where the raise can earn you some reliable information and induce your opponent to make a mistake.

He calls the raise and doesn't break -- we draw, certain we're behind. Folding the river costs precisely the same as calling twice with a losing hand but we earn the possibility of outdrawing.
He folds to the raise -- wow terrific. Rare but whatever, still great.
He calls the raise and breaks -- we pat as a pretty good favorite.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:19 AM   #17
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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You could flat and draw, but in addition to the possibility he's betting worse (where drawing would be a mistake) there are other hands he could break, so raising is reasonable. My point about the raise being this is the rare case where the raise can earn you some reliable information and induce your opponent to make a mistake.

He calls the raise and doesn't break -- we draw, certain we're behind. Folding the river costs precisely the same as calling twice with a losing hand but we earn the possibility of outdrawing.
He folds to the raise -- wow terrific. Rare but whatever, still great.
He calls the raise and breaks -- we pat as a pretty good favorite.
Yes I agree with this and how it's good to raise if he might be betting worse

But you made what I think could be an important observation that he did not bet out when he improved to a one card after the first draw when we were drawing two so you surmised he would not often be betting out worse pats than us.

Given there are very few (if any at all) better hands that would bet/break/fold it seems like we should simply call and draw.
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:31 PM   #18
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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You could flat and draw, but in addition to the possibility he's betting worse (where drawing would be a mistake) there are other hands he could break, so raising is reasonable. My point about the raise being this is the rare case where the raise can earn you some reliable information and induce your opponent to make a mistake.

He calls the raise and doesn't break -- we draw, certain we're behind. Folding the river costs precisely the same as calling twice with a losing hand but we earn the possibility of outdrawing.
He folds to the raise -- wow terrific. Rare but whatever, still great.
He calls the raise and breaks -- we pat as a pretty good favorite.
I agree he doesnt have a 7 draw but when we raise he's going to bet-call 96 and better (some chance he breaks 9-6) /'d probably break 9-8 and T-8. This isn't really inducing our opponent to make a mistake
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:51 PM   #19
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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I agree he doesnt have a 7 draw but when we raise he's going to bet-call 96 and better (some chance he breaks 9-6) /'d probably break 9-8 and T-8. This isn't really inducing our opponent to make a mistake
Small number of hands he could break incorrectly, 96532 or similar 96 with a straight draw and a deuce, and he could conceivably break the kind of Eight we presume he has, 87652 for example. He could bet/fold hands with some break equity like 98764 which would be totally fine. Significantly though, if villain does break his hand we get to pat as a favorite, something we can't do under any other circumstances. He's never going to lead the street and then draw, so raising is likely the only way we ever pat our hand after this action.

It's hard to be precise about what an unknown opponent would do, but I've seen players at this level do all of those things.

To be clear, I don't think raising is mandatory, and like RolledUpTrips says, you should mostly be playing this spot to exploit your opponent based on history, but lacking that you can both learn something and achieve something from a raise here.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:15 PM   #20
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

FWIW the guy had 86532
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:23 PM   #21
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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He's never going to lead the street and then draw if we just flat call, so raising is likely the only way we ever pat our hand after this action.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:56 PM   #22
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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Small number of hands he could break incorrectly, 96532 or similar 96 with a straight draw and a deuce, and he could conceivably break the kind of Eight we presume he has, 87652 for example. He could bet/fold hands with some break equity like 98764 which would be totally fine. Significantly though, if villain does break his hand we get to pat as a favorite, something we can't do under any other circumstances. He's never going to lead the street and then draw, so raising is likely the only way we ever pat our hand after this action.

It's hard to be precise about what an unknown opponent would do, but I've seen players at this level do all of those things.

To be clear, I don't think raising is mandatory, and like RolledUpTrips says, you should mostly be playing this spot to exploit your opponent based on history, but lacking that you can both learn something and achieve something from a raise here.
Getting to pat as a favorite is great, but so is having our opponent pat drawing dead
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:34 AM   #23
DeathDonkey
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

I think you played it best
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:49 PM   #24
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

i think i raise 2nd draw and if he raises again i break it. otherwise hand was well played. I stopped betting river in these spots... people call too tight and fold too wide in these spots live compared to what they should so I tighten up in these spots. 99% of the time they were showing up w/ 8s here or non rough 9s

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 10-04-2017 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:59 PM   #25
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Re: 40/80 2-7 Triple Draw, Break or Pat

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I agree he doesnt have a 7 draw but when we raise he's going to bet-call 96 and better (some chance he breaks 9-6) /'d probably break 9-8 and T-8. This isn't really inducing our opponent to make a mistake
tight guy probably just folds a good amount of 98 and t8 to this action if you raise 2nd draw. i think you're making the assumption that he plays perfectly which is not the case if you raise but definitely is the case if you call. really depends on how good the player is... better he is the more i like a call. worse he is more i like a raise

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