Decent button opens 4 handed. Sb calls. I defend bb with 24. Draw #1 2,3,1. I catch 23k (2234k). Checks to button who bets. Call call. Draw #2. 1,2,1. I catch 95 (23459). Checks to button who bets. Call call. Draw #3. 1,1,pat. I catch 7 for a wheel. Checks to me I bet.

actually since you saw one 9 already, i think i like c/r more now.

draw 2, i'm always breaking.

Depends mostly on button if he’s betting 100%, but with your exact hand I think a c/r is best. Pat if HU. I guess you could also pat if called in two spots but button could be pat so drawing and retaining equity if that’s true can’t be the worst play in the world. I bluff these spots a lot though too so there’s that.

you c/r and draw turn? i also think patting turn in any instance is pretty bad. maybe i've misunderstood your post? maybe you're saying c/r river? i could agree with that.

You don’t c/r and pat 9s vs an automatic bet?

I said pat HU but added that I consider drawing if I get called in two places because a parlay needs to occur. The middle guy has to miss and button has to not be pat. But no one said this was an easy decision but just said drawing and retaining equity can’t be the worst play.

If I c/r get HU, and pat I bet the river because I snow a lot in these spots

i guess maybe it isn't. i thought we should be a dog against 3 draws, but running it on twodimes, it looks like you're still good.

man, that seems nuts to snow vs d1 d1. i didn't really consider folding out draws. isn't that kind of optimistic? i guess a 87 draw. maybe more? i guess i got a lot to learn about this game.

not any 9. i guess this could be an exception.

No it's not a 1/1.

It is a 1/2/1. That is different because the button can bet his entire range. I'm not trying to get an 87 to break but it's possible and that part is sweet gravy. But in my first post I mentioned that it is key on whether or not button is betting 100% and that is vital. A 9 is a favorite over the course of two draws so on the merits it is both a raise for value and protection even if no one breaks an 87. And they might.

i was saying you're up against 2 d1's. i'd figure c/r snow often vs those is pretty crazy. and you're up against the btn's last draw + 2 more draws on river. so it's actually 3 draws plus whatever amount of draws the sb is c/r'ing.
if you don't expect to get someone off of an 87 draw, won't they only be folding pats that we beat and rough draws that they'd fold for 1 bet already?

damn, sorry! I thought we were in SB and were one of the D1s

understood. we're in bb drawing 2. i'm not arguing that btn isn't betting 100%. i was saying that his draw is still unknown. so we're still against it + the next 2 along with sb's c/r amount.

thank god. fwiw we're still a favorite vs 3 draws, but is overestimated being there's 4 extra dead small cards used in the sim. not sure by how much.

sorry for wasting our time ha ha

no, thanks for all your help. just to clear everything up, my original thoughts were to call and draw, and c/r river after seeing the 9.

yeah that sounds good to me and using the seen nine blocks a nine slightly that he would check back and is a good randomizer for mixing up the play

lead-pat the 95 (or possibly-break if raised). most people here lielikelykly overestiamte how often button c-bets this spot especially given that his button draw 1 range should contain a fair amount of rough draws.

we will be in some sticky spots when they raise the 97/T7 type hands but then we just have to play poker. Given that OP is playing in a room with people that are relatively knew to this game (extra info) I'd expect them to mostly play pretty striaghtforward in this spot, raising 8s and calling and breaking 9s and Ts. If that proves true then lead-calling easily best (unless button is c-betting 100% but he shouldn't be since sb can just check dark in this spot with impunity)

Yeah I considered lead pat and don’t think it’s a bad play at all.

It’s just when you “break rank” like this it’s often with a hand that can either pay or break so you will walk into many raises. But the 2345 draw isn't great and thus its tempting to bet and pat.

i'm also confused about lead patting the 9 in terms of balance. isn't btn supposed to be betting 100%? it feels like we're turning our hand face up and would be forced to use patting/breaking decisions vs a raise using a really small range. like i could see btn raising a Txxxx to get it hu (and i think is a good play). i'd also hate to break a 98 being that it's less likely he has an 8 himself, despite it being the bottom of my range. i'd think btn's 97's would make better call and breaks also for the same reason. maybe i'm just overvaluing blockers?
if we do take the bet/pat line 95432 and get raised, i think we should be forced to call/pat and pay off river.

my main point is, the whole point of taking exploitable lines is to gain a more favorable than usual advantage in a given scenario. not to put yourself in a crummy position like the one in previous post.
maybe you'd never take this line vs good players and only vs live droolers? idk

Yeah I warned it is somewhat apparent so you will run into many raises

am i right in being confused that robchill thinks a 97 would raise? i would think 97 would be the least likely. either call/break or call/pat and fold river. like i could see 98 raising as a bluff and possible barrel on river, and 96-95 as a raise for "value" and c/ back on river.

I think a 97 would raise, I think a lot of stuff does. So much so that against some (maybe even many) players it is a pat and call down.

But that's a damn shame when he rolls over an 86 and you had up to seven outs to beat that hand in a three way pot that is pretty big

Instead of putting in one bet and drawing live we put in 3 and froze ourselves.

I realize this is one cherry picked hand but have to consider ways that hands can go bad. Check calling and drawing is never horrendous.

yeah i agree a lot of stuff does. everything up to a T8 i'd think, but out of all those, i'd think the worst to raise is 97. being that it's in the very middle of value raises and bluff raises along with it not blocking 8's that won't break. i guess you don't bet turn with made 8's tho.....