4handed
247kk in sb
co raise, btn fold, we call sb, bb calls
2-3-1
we have 2475j
check, check, bet
we?

i'm thinking call because of the kkj discards?
and maybe raise would be good if we've seen more paired low cards?
like maybe if the j was a 4, it'd swing it to a c/r?

I dont like to x/r here OOP. CO is already drawing 1 so is either ahead now or drawing again in which case we're not really pushing an equity edge. I think it also turns your hand face up as a wheel draw and would be hard to balance.

I would personally just x/c in this spot and play it straightforward; however, I wonder if there's something to be said for folding out the BB's equity?

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i'm not sure it turns our hand face up, as i would think a lot of 4card hands could take this line, (if they should at all?). but yeah, running some equities on ppt, it looks like the dead cards don't play as big of a role as i thought.

I think in general either folding out BB's equity or making him put him more to draw seems like the best play.

In general against the CO's overall range we are probably an underdog, sometimes we are a slight favorite and other times we are a decent dog but it's probably not that bad.

Just curious though, say we have 2475 stamped on our forehead. How does that hurt us? Maybe he won't raise us as light with his value hands but that's all I can think of.

What I try to avoid is having a bad 1cd and being marked for it, but the other situation doesn't seem bad.

Anyone else like a lead here? BB might fold to it as he is potentially facing 1 - 2 more bets if he calls it. I definitely think it is a better line than c/r due to the times CO has a made hand.

But is it better than doing the passive c/c line and allowing BB to draw 2 or 3 cards for 1 bet closing the action?

no. both players should be checking 100% because btn should be betting 100%. betting is just goofy and exploitable and imo has less fold equity.

Pre I would 3b if BB has a tendency to call and draw 3 in this spot, since most of those D3 hands (2w) have decent equity against us and compromise our equity vs CO range. If CO range is all pat 8s, D1s (8-8-8-8-) and all D2s (8-8-2) (8-8-3), then we're a flip vs the range with our hand HU, but a slight money dog if the D3 joins the party. If CO is ever opening a D3 hand (23/3xx or 27/2xx for example) then we are a pretty good favorite HU, back to breakeven 3-ways.

As played, if we lead turn and BB flats we are losing money if CO raises, and let BB peel for one bet if CO flats.

I much prefer a c/r since CO will open a ton of D1 hands we're ahead of, and is obliged to bet everything (snow and legit D1s) UI. Since it is hard to make hands we do well if we get HU vs a worse D1 without the BB tagging along.

There is even a scenario where BB called pre D3 and improves to a poor pat, planning to c/r himself and barrel later streets, but now facing a c/r decides to fold. That would be nice as hell. If CO is running a snow with a bunch of duplicated cards, we can win the pot right there, or force him to make an ugly redraw with poor equity after BB folds. Also nice as hell.

There are lots of good scenarios if we c/r, plus a few bad ones, but even if BB takes all the heat and CO 3b (worst case), we have a very good draw as backup, so I like the c/r best.

Never lead here. As soon as this is the drawing action it's always going k/k/b and then you can worry about what you caught.

Agree w not wanting to x/r OOP against CO - who is either D1 or pat - w our own D1, just so that we can fold out BB equity. It's not bc it turns our hand faceup (which doesn't matter that much even if it did). But I'd rather make a hand or a snow before I worry about the BB peeling a D3 and isolate myself OOP against a player w at least as good a hand as ours.

I figured x/c would be the standard responses itt and the x/r line would be examined as a reasonable, but 2nd best option.

It's 4 handed... V should be opening much wider than D1 and pats. I agree with electrical that folding out or charging bb more to draw is best the play. It also makes our hand easier to play post imo. It's a closer decision if OP isn't capable of snowing and forcing mistakes and is just playing his hands face up abc.

I wouldn't cr here ever. If you a cr is profitable here then you should have just 3b pre

3betting a d2 vs a d2+ range seems dumb. like yeah, our d2 range is smoother than his d2 range, but equitywise, it's about the same. we're oop so still a dog playwise against the worst of his d2's anyway. plus around 22% of the time co is gonna have a d1+ and cap it. i really don't even think pre is close.

i'm also still leaning more towards what i originally proposed in the op with just calling flop after seeing kkj and possibly raising if after seeing 2+ small pairs.

Flatting pre is fine, I suggest rr if BB is sticky because his D3 hands rob equity from us and we have a good enough hand to want to play OOP if we can get it HU. Sometimes BB will just never fold any D3+ and vs that kind of player flatting probably best. OTF I favor c/r because it's way easier to win a HU pot than a 3-way pot, and our D1 will be a favorite over CO's UI D1 range. We are also protected some from being 3b by CO's worst pats because he hasn't seen draw action yet and will probably not 3b a Ten, 98 or his worst Eights. True the bet probably goes in after he sees us draw, but we might have made something by then and get to c/r again.

i'd already expect bb to have d3's in this spot anyway tho and that doesn't really change anything for me. i can see the logic for c/r flop, but w/e. it's close i guess so i'm not gonna argue about it. main point about pre, playing multiway oop is much easier than hu oop esp with a hand that's not even a favorite over opener's range (which in itself i would think it'd be clear a 3bet isn't warranted) imo. like in other games you can 3bet +implied odds hands that are a hot/cold equity dog, but only for balance and deception. there's no deception when we draw 2.

I guess the real question is what is the worst hand you call out of sb? ... or do you even know?

prob 862. i don't see why that's the real question tho.

To me the real question is what is the meaning of life?

Once that proper perspective is in place we can then move onto triple draw

My default is usually to call the smooth hand in SB because you are only pushing a slight equity edge which some of it is negated by the positional disadvantage especially in 1:1 spots on turn.

Then always many players make what I consider to be errors in the BB by calling with rougher reverse implied odds such as 873. So I think it's beneficial to let them in.

i think i'd call 873 in bb too. i think i'd call 73 too. is this a huge leak?

I consider it to be because in a situation like that you can't just look at immediate odds, you also have to consider that you have to try and peel on the flop if you miss in the case of 873 at least. When it goes 2/2/2 and the SB leads this a bad spot as you will often get raised, so you are either putting money in bad or you are not realizing equity.

I would not call 73 because you need a deuce, a cutoff range has one maybe 80% of time (I think you are well trained to calculate this exactly now) and the SB calling range almost always has one.

So with hands like these you are often building bad 87s three ways

i don't have my ranges in front of me, but i think that co only has a 2 50% of the time, and yeah, sb should have a 2 100% of the time. i just figure peeling 873 isn't too bad because there's 2.3 deuces left and am not too scared of co as he should have some rough draws too. i'm not sure tho, but i can see what you're saying.

I do and it looks like the CO has a deuce 63% of the time with my assumed range. So you were abit closer, but it is in between what we said.

Below is the bottom of my CO range, all better hands the 873 and the SB pretty much has a fairly strong D2 range

Marginal Two Card Draws (278, 345-348, 356-358, 367, 368)

yeah, that's kind of what i meant. i also think i might have 845 in co range (maybe too loose), but if say he draws 2, he's gonna pick up a lot of straight draws if improved. also, if we and sb both improve we can force out co with a lot of his d2's and d1's.
i also don't think we are bound to a flop peel all of the time ui, say when co draws 1 and sb bets

No matter how we slice it it's not good, as it just shifting around under realization issues to on average putting money in bad on the next betting round. Both are bad.