8/16

utg folds
hj opens
i call 245xx
btn calls
one of the blinds calls

2 > 1 > 2 > 2

i have 2457-4 and HJ cbets.

is this a spot i want to raise? or smooth and let worse draws in?

i'd raise

Raise. The pot is already pretty huge and you want to kick out all of their equity, or at least charge them to draw worse. This isn't close IMO

Don't think it's close either, but I think you will some calls even from if they are still just D2

Either way, you make out

Question for the raisers: what do you do when you make a draw like 8742 instead?

I think it is and often don’t raise

Tough one, if you decide to play it as a 742 call, as a 8742 then raise

I'll dodge the harder part of the question because I don't know how sticky the other players are in the pot, if they take two to the face still D2 etc

Think the raise with 2457-4 is basically textbook. Get them to relinquish their equity or pay up. You know for sure you belong in the pot but they may not. But we don't really care one way or another what happens so I raise here without knowing other player profiles. You do have a draw to the nuts and I get the urge to pull but there is also a lot of low cards out so it's going to be harder for people to make hands.

If you play that way, aren't you basically announcing your draw to BTN and giving him a great opportunity to raise? What are you going to do with trashier hands like 6542, 7643, 8753? How do you balance them?

I guess I'm in the minority but I'm usually calling all of my 1-card draws here.

Not sure what you mean. Where is the announcement? I'm raising with 8742 and 2457. But I'm not doing it for the sake of balance. I'm trying to deny equity or for value, that's the important thing But more than likely I just call and draw to the 742 again anyway.

I never have 7643 and 8753 as I would not have called preflop with holdings that would build such hands. I would raise 2456.

I mean an observant opponent who is left to act could notice that you always raise when you improve your draw, and so if you just call, indicating you haven’t improved, you are giving him a reason to raise his own improvements when he may have normally just called.

Fair point about 7643 and 8753, I wouldn’t have those hands either. I would have guessed hands like 6542 and 8742 (I’m always keeping the 8) didn’t have an equity edge or enough “equity denial” , but I assume you’ve done more work on this than I have.

2456 doesn't seem like a trashy hand to me.

you don't keep the 8 here?

Ok, I see your point now. Possibly I will get punished for one more bet in spots where maybe I would otherwise. But that's a fraction of a bet, sometimes. And I say sometimes because he knows I'm coming (so no equity denial) so he typically has to have quite a good holding not just a 1cd. Because he might be up against a pat.

But it's a tradeoff, in the above I may lose a fraction of a bet, but not raising I feel can cost us pots, and if people call 2 with D2s we pick up good fractions of bets that way. I believe this is more important.

Maybe we should. I'm not loving the spot with an 87 draw though. If one of the other D2s picked up a draw you will often have the third worse draw with two draws to go.

There's some school of thought where you should always keep the 87, because either you are HU or it's way multi-way and there are not many low cards left to catch.


I'd kind of rather just ditch it and see if I can hit some gin. But I don't have a strong feeling either way.

But we are up 4 handed and an EP raiser probably has an 86 or better draw here. So I think D2 is best.

We don’t lose a fraction of a bet the times we get it HU vs a made 8 or better. I think you and mark people underestimate how much we lose when he improves here.

For starters you want the other players in when he makes an 8 and we have a wheel draw. Sure there are a few times we make 875, he has 876 and a third player scoops but that will happen far less often then we make a 7 and they get punished.

There’s lots of other benefits to calling as well, having a protégée calling range is a large kneX as otherwise have mentioned.

I won’t go into the specific frequencies, but just say that I have a mixed strategy in this spot and think that most peoooe raise at way to high of a frequency

And if you end up raising and drawing 2 here it’s probably terrible.

I’d also call and draw 1 with 2378 100%

Ignore the above posts if mod hasn't already deleting them. Galt's motor was freezing my phone and things got weird and cut off.

Anyhow, the button has less reasons to raise then we do as he already has best position and probably cannot get it HU without taking the worst of it. But you can get it HU with the best of it when you have a 1cd. He has to be selective here and I'd posture that his decision making will be primarily based on his draw and his discards as it should be. Then there is a also another guy in pot. It's a multiway pot so don't think we should overthink ourselves.

And a reason why I don’t like the 8742 draw is because it would benefit from protection from the D2s but if we raise it we are potentially getting it in really bad.