I’m not sure anyone other than phunkfish knows what game we are discussing

So far I give this thread an F!

Yeah, I'm changing my mind on this. I think defending this in the SB from CO/OTB open is fine.

It’s clearly badacey/Badeucy given the title

[ ] clearly Badacey/ Badeucey given title

[x] clearly Badacey/ Badeucey given title

If it were literally Acey-Deucey, then the title would make no sense since all hands are 2-card hands. Plus, what's the backslash doing in there?

Of course, it could be the backgammon game being played with cards rather than dice in some Oklahoma hellhole...

Heard of Acey Ducey but had no idea how it was played

Maybe I’m an idiot but I was confused and I write about mixed games. Surely others had to be confused considering new weird games are always popping up

Cutesy nicknames for games is a reverse freeroll!

It's common to see these plays, but I don't understand how it's a 60/40 in favor of, spot. I compare it to the thread that poses similar questions - but for badugi - which OP also asked about. I think the situations have broad similarities and was a good follow up to this thread.

Are we playing these 2 cd hands frequently bc we can assume most players are playing badly and we can maneuver better post draw = we can afford to play more hands profitably than them? Or is it something else?

Should these spots be approached the same way in badugi, as described in the other thread? Should we be more liberally cc 2 cd hands in the split-pot games or badugi?

I would think the A2/A3 badugi hands would have more value in badugi than the 23/24 hands would have in Bd. In badugi, where the nutty tri wins a fair amount, we are only 1 card away from making a showdown-able hand (maybe even a tri we can vbet river with) when we start w A2/A3.

I was of the opinion that since the population's pre-draw ranges appear too loose (sometimes way too loose, such as guys cc w 45xxx or 28xxx), the exploit is to tighten up slightly (pre-draw only). Whether it's badugi or Bd/Ba, cc from SB w the discount is prob better than cc from CO/BTN.

If you are referring to my post about the 60/40 I was posting under the assumption it was straight Ace to Five because of the cutsey nickname for the games I did not know what game we were discussing

But basically anytime you start out drawing more cards than your opponent you will fare worse than hot/cold equity suggests. Some of it is mitigated due to implied odds of facing an automatic bet but still you are giving something up.

I think the two card hands have way more value in Bd and Ba than Badugi due to fact you are drawing three and dual nature of game and some math of improving that I’ve worked on my own

But in Badugi I think the two card draws are way overrated. 25% of the time you have literally nothing after two draws, not even a three card eight.

In Bd or Ba I’d cold call a raise on button with premium two card starters but never would in Badugi.

Edited to add for Badugi: In draw you can often "catch up" when you and your opponent are both drawing the same amount of cards and it's close to a coin flip. But in Badugi this really isn't the case as the better tri is a large favorite over an inferior one with one draw to go.

I agree with you that I’d rather have 2-3 Badeucy than A3 badugi but I think you probably undervalue 2ce hands in badugi as well.
Yea there at least lots of people you can fold A2 to when they raise but there are lots of people (mix pros included) that folding A2 to would be quite bad. You just have the best hand a lot.

If you play live you are going to see ageless two cars draws opened in EP way More often than you expect

I've studied the situation a lot, yeah sure if we are HU then we can certainly call regardless of how many 2c draws are in our opponent's range. But in Badugi, smooth calling often entices a multiway pot and in that case a badugi is normally required at the end and that spot is not good.

But on the flip side, I'm fine with 2c3s with 3-4 in pot in Badeucey especially if I'm tossing some blockers.

We shouldn’t call A2 because we’ll have To play it in position vs a liberal opening range and Yb big blinds two card 6 draw isn’t the most convincing argument. It certainty apples to cold calling in EP and MP which is generally bad but not to button/cutoff cold calls

Well we are also talking about the SB and it’s not hard to have a tri. But whatever will have to disagree I guess

But just to add a few things here, I'm not participating to argue and convince like its a debate competition.

I like to clearly lay out my logic and try and give some mathematics behind it instead of generalities often said here like "I'm checkraising a ton!". Can we put "ton" into a range and sum up combos? lol.

Then if someone convinces me I'm wrong and why I'm actually quite happy. A leak got plugged.

Can you define liberal opening range? Does that mean 34, 45 stuff? Sure I like A2 on button vs an ultra wide range.

What I will say though is that A2 really does not fare that great in a matchup against two (or more) mediocre tris. And that's the position we will be in a lot when we smooth call.

Frankly, if we think our opponent is that wide, I like a re-raise with A2 on button.

And just to be clear, talking Badugi...

Game I refer to is 80/160 badeucy and badacey. Pro is someone I've seen post on 2+2 before; multiple time mix game wsop bracelet winner. Do not believe he was splashing around because the game was too small.

I believe it's a fact that most people don't snow enough. That's what makes 2 card hands so playable.

I think standard in these games.

I wanted to start a more general Badeucey and Badacey thread. I don’t think I have ever pulled a pure snow. I’ll keep betting with a bad tri and 4 card low and bet on end hoping to get credit for a badugi. But that’s about it and doesn’t really count. It’s a very showdowny game often with multiple players.

You can represent one half of a made hand and still draw and someone drawing two may already have a showdown hand in their mind. So I don’t see many snow spots if any.

I don’t like these games because they are slow and I think the skill edge is lower.

Anyone feel differently and/or snow in these games?

I think this would be pretty bad, and if blinds do we have a mediocre 3 card then you just end up playing a bigger pot vs them

You can snow but some of the river decides in these games are bigger (and more costly) mistakes than in any other form of poker

I hear this a lot and couldn’t disagree more. I think the skil edge in Baduecuy is absolutely massive in average or better games (quite low in tough games but that’s true for all games). Definitely less so in badacey however

Regarding the Badugi stuff, start specifying exact ranges so we can have a more useful discussion. I’m not 3 betting the 2 card, I would fold but cold calling is worst of three imo if you really think someone is opening wide where folding is bad iyo. And what mediocre tris are calling three bets? Any competent player is folding mediocre tris and bad badugis.

In a typical mix what games would you consider skill to be less of a factor than Badeucey?

For badugi you can’t specify ranges which is why I think some of your blanket advise like never cold calls and draw 2 is not the best. There are UTG badugi ranges and there are UTG and stuck badugi ranges. Some of these include 2 card 5s and some don’t. There are also BB defending ranges and B.B. when stuck defending ranges. Some of these include calling 4 bets and drawing 2 and some don’t. All you can really do is pay attention to what’s happening and do what you think is best. Often this involves folding a 2 card draw but if UTG is opening any 2 card 5 or better and 3 card 8 and any badugi and B.B. is basically calling 2 and 3 with the exact same range then there’s no way I’m doing anything other than cold calling A2/A3

Lots of players rarely fold good 2 card draws for 3 bets in badugi, they are folding three card 7s and 8s close to never.

None of them. That being said if the game is amazing your much better off playing something like bigO/super stud8 obviously as the opportunity to play every hand in Badeucy doesn’t exist. But people will generally make more and bigger mistakes on the river in Badeucy than other games.

If I was in a full game with all mix geniuses than I’d obviously say you should play limit Holden

So you agree it is the least skillful game and it also takes the longest to play

I’d be fine with just Badeucey but Badacey is always in there too which is annoying

Sounds like a good game, calling 3 bets with those hands like 3 card 8s will get you creamed. Haven’t seen a game that loose for maybe a decade but sure if people are stuck and steaming you can play more hands

Confused, I think Badeucy is one of the most skillful games.

You said the opposite in your previous post.

Badeucey has an enormous potential skill edge compared to Badacey. In the same way 2-7 draw is potentially a more skill-rewarding game than A-5 draw, though I believe the skill differential between B2 and Ba is greater than the skill differential between 2-7 and A-5.

B2 is a game where expert players can make fundamental mistakes for literally years and not know it. The skill edge is mitigated by the luck factor, which is also enormous in this game because the snowing/bluffing opportunities are more rare and worth a lot less.

I don't particularly like the mechanics of either game and I prefer one-winner lowball games for my own playing style, but to say there isn't a potentially great skill edge in B2 is dead wrong.