7handed 2-7TD, Villian (CO) is a decent reg.

UTG limps in, CO raises, hero in SB with 2347K 3bets UTG/CO calls.

HERO D1, UTG D2, CO D2

We draw an 8 for 23478. We bet UTG/CO calls.

HERO PAT, UTGD1, D1

We bet, UTG calls, CO raises, we call, UTG folds.

Do I break here?

Depends on how crafty he is. I keep my 87 a lot of the time here and check call the river.

Cant see myself folding #10 here. We can have quite a few rough pat hands in this spot plus we're OOP so CO has incentive to try and get us to break.

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Don't break

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The 8s you should be looking to break here are basically just 876. You just don't pick up enough equity when you're right vs what you're throwing away when you're wrong.

I'm with the others that say not to break unless you have an 876. Even those hands could call down in other situations, but I think the presence of UTG makes CO's range a bit stronger. Crafty and aggressive players will sometimes raise drawing one here hoping you will break and could raise worse 8s for value. 5.5:1 on the calldown means you only need to win 18%, which you have if he is raising worse 8s. You're gonna make like a quarter of a BB calling down.

Was this on Saturday at Canterbury?
And no, you can't break, as tempting as it is to try to make the nuts.

This is very similar to another hand posted on same page.

Except in theory our range should be stronger here as we were a D1 with two players in OOP. We should not have any 9s.

Yeah sure there is some chance he is trying to break but the presence of the 3rd player we need to fade even when we are good impacts the math a lot.

And do we think he’s doing it a lot with an 87? So he blocks an 87 trying to get an 87 to break? Many are freezing a slightly worse 87.

Then adding to it I along with everyone else would probably call the river which in long run is probably a losing call but we feel committed.

All things considered I think it’s to our advantage mathematically to break.

There are however a few guys I would never break to but those types are obvious

If you're playing in games where it's correct to break this then you're playing in really good games.

I get the JRB treatment, but the game can also so be good that it can be more dangerous to break..

But I think under most reasonable assumptions that your hot/cold equity is around the same whether you break or pat. So the difference maker to me is that can win money after the last draw by breaking.

I think it’s close and sensitive to some assumptions that we would make. It’s just a traumatic event the times we broke the best hand so we may unduly weight those in our decision making. Would be willing to run some calcs if people want to throw out an estimate on how often we are good here and when not what the raising range of the last guy looks like.

But if the consensus is to stay pat and I assume call the river(?) why would we not be 3 betting the turn?

We don’t think villain would check behind any hand better than ours on river right? So we aren’t saving any bets there. Then of course you can get reraised but then the issue seems clear.

I can, however, see the perils of breaking as we may be breaking as much as 25-30% here assuming we are starting with premium D1s. Though if we have some weaker stuff such as 8753 we are not breaking as much so we would be fine. Because we would just pat hands like 87534.

Just curious from a pure value raise standpoint what do you think that range looks like?

With a caller in the middle we don’t have to beat the original patter as often as it is when it was heads up but still need to be ahead around 40% right? An 875 or worse probably doesn’t have 40% equity vs a D1 OOP pat on 1st draw vs multiple players.

Does anyone have a freeze range or does that not exist with the player in middle?

Initially I guessed CO would raise any 8 here. It seems reasonable with another player drawing one and the chance to beat Hero or get Hero to break a better 8. He might include 9s in Hero's range but I don't think he has to do that to try a move. I've seen bluffs in spots like this too - maybe not the exact same action but close enough.

Times like this I wish for a range vs range equity calculator. If he puts Hero only on 8s or better value would be lacking with 875 as you say, but there are other benefits to a raise. Either player could fold (this happened), Hero could break a better 8, or CO could get a free showdown (while charging UTG) putting in two bets with either line.

Like you say I wouldn't freeze in CO with UTG still drawing. What is the benefit? Not getting 3bet? I also don't understand why you think 3betting the turn could be better than calling down? We have the best breakable so we don't get the same benefits CO does from scaring the other player into breaking. I figure we are slightly profitable on the calldown against a stronger range that should be bluffing and value cutting itself enough.

If we break we can figure we win ~17% of the time (8/46). Sometimes we get an extra bet. If we call down we could have 25% or more depending on CO's range. We suffer some reverse implied odds with this strategy, but it's stronger against any of CO's shenanigans.

I feel like this was just a very long winded way to repeat what Codfish60 said on post #3.

i don't think it's far off to assume villain can raise 100% of his pat range on turn including bluffs. villain can have a lot of 9's that are in terrible drawing shape vs 1pat, and of which can easily raise/fold turn. can also be doing this with 876's hoping that you'll break,
as well as plenty of other hands that are calling down anyway, so are planning to charge other player and c/back river.
imo if you're breaking 874, you're breaking way too much.
would like to hear dd's thoughts on this, as i know he doesn't believe in the concept of "merging", but i think this games riddled with it.

If we assume we are just calling down (are we?) then why wouldn't we 3 bet? I can't tell from your post, but just to be clear I'm advocating the 3 bet if we are patting. I'm not sure why that wasn't advocated, it's clearly the optimal play given the patting line isn't it?

If our hand is indeed good, then eliminating the drawing hand is very important and punishing the guy making a play or raising worse is good.


And our hand is right at the border with the 87 perfect. If we just call the raise, isn't our opponent typically going to more or less play perfectly on the river? Meaning he is betting better pats but checking behind worse? So assuming it's close whether or not we have the best hand we lose the same vs slightly better hands but gain immensely (both eliminate drawing hand and collect an extra bet) when we have the other guy slightly pipped.

Could someone explain me quickly the concept of "freezing" in TD? I'm not familiar with this.

some guy doing this will be easily identifiable and we would never break


and it's not a linear breaking strategy, we would pat worse hands that are not as advantageous to be broken

basically you have a pat hand that could even be slightly the favorite to be the best hand

But you don't raise because it might be close, and when you are ahead you don't want your opponent to break and thus be drawing live

Ah I see. Thank you.

Disagree that hero can not pat 9s after d1.

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Ok lets talk about that.

What should hero’s D1 range be?

Patting 97432 and 98432 the like are clear mistakes

23469 and the like can be pat, I agree. At any rate it’s close.OOP vs 2 people I think a case can be made to even break those.

Don’t take the wrong way but from your past posts I think you tend to quick pat too often. What’s your D1 range and what 9s are you patting?

But in general our range is strong and not too 9 heavy.

My offer stands in that I’m willing to crunch numbers if fed assumptions, but think much more nuanced situation than just saying we have #10, call down, and move onto next one

yeah but if hero is breaking 874, it would be a good adjustment for villain to make imo.

No, it depends on how many hands in our range we are breaking. You understood what I meant in my last post where our breaking decisions are non linear right?