Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Draw and Other Poker Discussion of poker games not covered elsewhere (e.g. badugi, draw, triple-draw, pineapple)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2019, 09:54 PM   #1
PLBlow
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 437
2-7TD hand:

Hijack opens, I 3-bet 2-5-7-9-T. Folds to him, he calls.

1:2 I draw (257)49

He bets, I raise, he calls.

1:1 I draw (2457)A

Check/check(?)

1:1 I draw (2457)T

Check/bet/fold
*******

Should I bet here after he checks after the second draw? I would expect him to bet any hand hes patting and my draw is certainly better so is this lost value?

Second question is if he bets into me on the end, is this a good candidate for a bluff raise? He knows I had a premium draw going into the end, but two 9ís and two Tís are dead which are the hands he would presumably fold to a raise

Would catching a jack be better, or is this a spot where we shouldnt bluff raise at all?

Thanks



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PLBlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 02:14 AM   #2
kisada
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,248
Re: 2-7TD hand:

the way i learned it, raising OTF in this type of situation is, well, fairly situational. you basically need a really good reason to be doing it HU with a D1 vs another apparent D1. like maybe you started 23422 and then D2 into 23477, so you know he's got reduced options for hitting a 2 or a 7.

since he didn't cap pre, that more than likely means he has a not so great D1 himself. 3457, maybe? 4578? i'm not experienced enough to say if that is reason enough to push whatever equity edge you have here as most of the time it's just a call OTF.

imo having a ten OTR is good enough to show down and a lot of players will bluff into a 1:1 river spot. my preference would be to not turn this hand into a bluff as you just fold out things you're beating anyway. additionally, if he did have one of those straight draw D1's to begin with and made a straight, he might feel obligated to bluff river since he can't win otherwise. and as you said 99/TT are gone, and 99 being gone will ostensibly replace some of his river leads with river bluffs.

all in all i'd just call riv.
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 04:39 PM   #3
Zimmer4141
Wet
 
Zimmer4141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 30,317
Re: 2-7TD hand:

I think I'd bet the turn. You can get him to break T's that he'd pat if it goes check/check. If you both draw 1 you've got the better draw so there's value in getting called as well.

River I don't think I'd bluff raise if he bets, would just call to bluff catch with a decent T.
Zimmer4141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2019, 04:38 AM   #4
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,962
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Was the river bet for value or as a bluff? Seems pretty thin. Would anyone stay pat with the 9 after first draw?
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 10:38 PM   #5
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Was the river bet for value or as a bluff? Seems pretty thin. Would anyone stay pat with the 9 after first draw?
The guy was always D1 so itís a standard value bet
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 10:49 PM   #6
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

I would not 3b pre draw against a HJ range

The flop raise is probably losing because he was D1 heading into the draw. Even if we calc’d the equity and it came up >50% it doesn’t override the times he’s pat and 3bets.

Betting the turn with a D1 is something we should do sometimes as another poster mentioned as it could get him to break a ten and that’s very good. But doing it too often may lead to problems. Thus I usually reserve it for times I caught some pairs he may need. Good randomizer for not doing it too often and your equity is higher on that bet.

Your hand has way more value as a call. Not many (if any) players will bet a hand for value and then lay it down and you beat bluffs

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 03-03-2019 at 11:02 PM.
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2019, 01:57 AM   #7
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada View Post
the way i learned it, raising OTF in this type of situation is, well, fairly situational. you basically need a really good reason to be doing it HU with a D1 vs another apparent D1. like maybe you started 23422 and then D2 into 23477, so you know he's got reduced options for hitting a 2 or a 7.

since he didn't cap pre, that more than likely means he has a not so great D1 himself. 3457, maybe? 4578? i'm not experienced enough to say if that is reason enough to push whatever equity edge you have here as most of the time it's just a call OTF.

imo having a ten OTR is good enough to show down and a lot of players will bluff into a 1:1 river spot. my preference would be to not turn this hand into a bluff as you just fold out things you're beating anyway. additionally, if he did have one of those straight draw D1's to begin with and made a straight, he might feel obligated to bluff river since he can't win otherwise. and as you said 99/TT are gone, and 99 being gone will ostensibly replace some of his river leads with river bluffs.

all in all i'd just call riv.
Regarding the range of his original D1, he opened from the HJ so donít think he has anything that rough, but no reads given. He can have plenty of 8642 type of stuff that isnít going to always re-raise if he got repopped by the cutoff (OP did not say where he was.
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2019, 02:26 AM   #8
kisada
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,248
Re: 2-7TD hand:

so in villain's spot we don't want to be capping 8642 vs CO? because i think that's something i'd be doing without much thought, especially in my games where a D2 3b is fairly common.
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2019, 02:53 AM   #9
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada View Post
so in villain's spot we don't want to be capping 8642 vs CO? because i think that's something i'd be doing without much thought, especially in my games where a D2 3b is fairly common.
You can and that has been my experience as well. But not all would. I do think 8652 is more likely than 8754 though
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2019, 04:08 PM   #10
NedSchneebly
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 288
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Most interesting spot for me is on the flop if we keep the 24579 or break the 9.

I also re-raise CO here v most HJ opens because people generally open a little too wide. I think the value of denying Blind equity outweigh the negative value of times we are re-raised by original raisers D1 but I am not 100% sure

Given that HJ did not 4! pre I like a turn bet as well.
NedSchneebly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2019, 04:23 PM   #11
kisada
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,248
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
You can and that has been my experience as well. But not all would. I do think 8652 is more likely than 8754 though
right, i see.

so i think it is probably a mistake for me to automatically assign a straight draw d1 range to a player who isn't capping their D1's pre.
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 01:59 AM   #12
PLBlow
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 437
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Betting the turn with a D1 is something we should do sometimes as another poster mentioned as it could get him to break a ten and thatís very good


He should be betting/patting any 10ís after he sees me D1 on the turn though right? Jacks also?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PLBlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 02:12 AM   #13
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLBlow View Post
He should be betting/patting any 10ís after he sees me D1 on the turn though right? Jacks also?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I read the hand right you are IP
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 02:44 AM   #14
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 25,007
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Pat the 9 imo.
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 01:14 PM   #15
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Pat the 9 imo.
When you hold the best D1 as is most certainly the case here you essentially have the same equity advantage drawing as you do patting thus I think breaking is the preferred play
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2019, 09:53 AM   #16
leavesofliberty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: probably busto
Posts: 6,256
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
When you hold the best D1 as is most certainly the case here you essentially have the same equity advantage drawing as you do patting thus I think breaking is the preferred play
makes sense
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 01:10 AM   #17
MacauBound
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,667
Re: 2-7TD hand:

I wouldnít usually 3b 2w7xx from CO/BTN vs HJ open. If we arenít also 3b 246/258 type hands then Iíd just cc and keep our predraw range a little wider. Hand plays good MW if the blinds come along - partly bc we are in position and partly bc of good implied odds if we bink.

Iíd call flop and d1. If youíre going to raise, you should have a pat hand. Sometimes we will get 3b by an 8 or better and have inflated a pot where we have up to 8-12 outs twice. Most time we increase variance, push very small equity edge going into 2nd draw, and announce our hand as 2ww7x. Ive seen some aggro winners,w high snow frequency, raise/pat the 97, and get value on turn and river. But that line is not in my wheelhouse

I could see betting the turn UI in some spots and having a little FE, if the pre draw ranges had more rough combos (like BvB or BTN vs BB). But that wouldnít normally be the case in a ring game vs HJ open, so I check here. Cuz we can also get xr.

This is not good candidate for bluff raise river. Sometimes we call and win. Nor would I do it with a J. If weíve seen all the deuces, or more 7s/8s, those could be better bluff raises - but only if our hand wasnít good enough to comfortably calldown with. T7 in 1:1 is too good of a hand to bluff with
MacauBound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 01:06 PM   #18
ScotchOnDaRocks
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SealsWithClubs
Posts: 2,085
Re: 2-7TD hand:

Just one more comment on flatting vs reraising decision predraw

Even if heís opening slightly wide from HJ I donít think reraising has a value component and when we have BU itís not buying us position.

Equity denial is important but in general donít mind letting BB in with his rough hands not containing a 2. Imo heís making a small mistake coming in with them. Heís coming with in prem D2 regardless so itís a small subset of hands he can hold that would come in that we generally would not like.

When V is D1 and we donít improve he subsidizes our calls when UI. When we improve to a D1 as we did here then we would raise to knock him out
ScotchOnDaRocks is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online