Foxwoods mixed game this past weekend, 150/300. Cutoff opens, button folds, SB calls, Hero calls BB with 873xx. Everyone draws 2, Hero gets 2 bricks, and everyone checks.

Second draw all draw 2 again, Hero pulls a 65 (87653). SB bets out, Hero raises and cutoff 3b. SB folds. Hero?

Reads: cutoff is ~30 yr old Asian guy, definitely a regular in this game and a pro. Very experienced and tough. We played together a year ago, he remembered playing with me but I don’t know what he thinks of my play.

Call/pat/chk/fold

+1

w/o reads, he has too much incentive to 3b turn in position MW for you to fold or break. But once you've shown him you aren't folding and he bets and you don't have a deuce, you should fold river.

He might 3b a premium 1 cd more than most. His deuce game is prob solid tag w the ability to adjust quickly when it's warranted. If he pats behind and bets river he is not running a semi-suicidal snow hardly ever.

In villain's spot, if I made a huge hand I would smooth and let everybody draw, likely dead. The hands I would 3b would be Eights, good or breakable Nines and occasionally Tens with smooth redraws.

If I can't give villain a specific play, then thinking about what I might do at least gives me a range to consider, and against the range described we can't consider folding the turn. My instinct is to take this to showdown since we don't have to worry about SB catching up.

I think calling the 3b then c/f the river is the worst option if villain is capable of making a blocker play when he sees how ambivalent we are about our hand. When a bunch of people draw a bunch of cards, everybody has a lot of dead card information, and in that situation some people are emboldened to over-value their blockers and discards when it looks like nobody has made much.

Agree w all of this, dependent on game conditions. Not able to articulate as well as you. But I was thinking . . .

Online, esp in straight deuce games at midstakes+, I think it's an easy x/c. Villains will be more aggressive and value bet worse and they will be more balanced and snow more often.

But as this is a live mix deuce spot, when villain bets river after we call/pat, they are really value heavy imo. So if I'm hero and calling river, I'm thinking it might not be the highest EV play, but it's close and will prevent them from trying to run me over.

Thanks for the articulate response, and it's almost like you were at the table.

I thought my hand was too strong to fold, and breaking seemed like a disaster-only a 2 helps my hand and there's likely only 3 of those remaining (at most). So like the LHE showdown monkey I am, I called, and was planning to chk/call the 3rd draw, expecting to lose to a better 8 a good bit of the time (11:1, don't need to be good too often, and I show them not to push me around). However, villain broke (draw 1) after I patted. I checked the last betting round, he checked back, MHIG.

Maybe this is simply 20/20 hindsight, but how do people feel about 4 betting the turn? And folding to a 5b? Villain doesn't have enough history with me to 5b without a monster. Assuming he calls the 4b and draws 1, do we keep repping a big hand and bet the river? He's definitely folding better 8s, what is the worst 8 he calls with?

Disagree strongly with this line of thinking, especially in this spot.

I don't 4bet because I really hate my hand if it gets capped, and if villain has a worse hand I don't want him to break it. With the draws going the way they did he is extremely unlikely to break an 87 even if he's holding a Deuce so the 4b is mostly going to cost us money vs better hands or give villain a shot at outdrawing us.

There are certainly times in my life where I've been previously caught making aggressive plays where I would 4b for value and fire the river vs somebody who's seen me do the same thing with a straight or 777 or whatever, but lacking a specific reason for it, I'd just show this down.

"He might 3b a premium 1 cd more than most"

that's what I was referring to ime w villain

I've seen people I consider good lags 4b and pat this spot to try and make the in position player break. But it's not standard and usually when they're a little tilty.

I hope you enjoyed the "wonder of it all" as FW advertises itself. nh

I think we have to accept the fact that villain will have a shot at outdrawing us-once I pat he has to break a 9 or T, especially since I am essentially an unknown to him. I agree he won't break an 8 (I have the worst possible 8) but he'll likely check back an 87 since I'm pat.

What is the worst possible hand you would 4b with in this spot?

Good read on villain. I think he plays AC as well, is that where you play?

I love FW! In my limited experience, the games are always good, plus I can play stud (here in CO it's LHE only if you want to play interesting stakes in a casino). Aside from the difficulty getting there, the main downsides are the cost of staying there on the weekend and the full-frontal lobotomized cashiers-never seen so many recounts of chips and bills, ever.

I have played limit poker and mix games in lots of places (even San Juan has 5/10 limit holdem game lol), but have never had the pleasure of playing at Borgata or Parx. My single, childless and better playing poker friends tell me I'm missing out on good lhe and mix games. I haven't made it down to either of the two main casinos in MD either.

FW is very much in the middle of nowhere CT. Every room has its quirks and in this room there are prob as many stud hi games as almost every other room in the country, combined. Stud8 will almost always be in the mix games, but not stud hi. You prob could've asked for limit holdem.

If you're asking what the worst hand you would 4 bet (w 4 bet cap unless HU) for value here as a standard, I'll take a shot answering and say approx around #5-#7. And I'm hoping I'm not blocking any other 8s, but hoping I block some deuces. gl

Lots of Nines and Tens aren't worth breaking because they are rough or have straight draws under. Those hands he should fold to a 4 bet, and the breakable ones he should break when we 4b/pat, so there's no value in making him play correctly. There's also some chance he bets the best Nines and a small number of bluffs on the river if we look ambivalent, which we like.

This is also a thing we like.

I would make situational 4b for cause as mentioned, but I don't think I'm 4-betting for pure value vs an unknown range any hand that started 873.

I have only been to FW once, but I too marvel at how they've kept the stud ecosystem alive, museum like, in a kind of terrarium.

is fold pre too tight? when i'm in the sb here i cold call premium 2c vs the open hoping that bb will come along with this hand

mistake?

Way too tight. I’m more interested in the assertion that we should cc our premium made hands in villain’s spot here. I think that’s just awful.

I don't see how it could be standard for villain to cc #5 or better after everybody takes two. We are value and those times we take this line w anything but a wheel, we will get outdrawn sometimes and hate life.

But, to balance the very few hands that villain wants to cc/pat (somewhat of a freeze line) w the weaker portion of that range - 87543 for ex. - I think there are also very few scenarios where villain can cc/pat a hand like #5 or better and raise river.

If it works out, villain makes an extra bet or two and protects that pseudo-freeze range a little bit. If it doesn't, we lose value. I will do this 5-10% I'm in villain's spot w a monster, but it's usually due to opponents' tendencies more than anything. I don't think it's at all standard.

Agreed. I’d probably take this line with number 4 and number 3 specifically once in a while (I think I’d want a 7 in my hand) but never with number 2 or number 1 and as you said not as a standard line.

I don’t think you are losing much, if we had 278 a strong case can be made to just draw to 27 instead and 873 is worse than 278. I don’t mind a fold at all.

Not folding pre often but I don't think it's awful, can be best vs certain players.

I don't think c/c OOP with a monster is on anybody's mind. If I am c/o and it's two bets to me with a wheel or #2 I would often call and hope it stayed multiway. If I'm lucky the opener 3bets but regardless, there should be action on the river vs a weak looking D2-pat.

If one bet ott I raise regardless how many-handed.

Everyone has shown interest in the hand and live players call too much so cc is really pretty bad. Plus everyone drew 2 so your 3b range should be quite wide. It’s a disaster not to include your best hands in such situations. Also pre is really not close vs almost anyone. You can’t just fold this hand getting better than 5:1 vs wide ranges.

Yeah I’d three bang it all day with my best hands and get the value

Regarding pre, what hot/cold equity three ways do you think we have? I presume you think we have too much to fold because we really aren’t calling with 873 due to implied odds of making a premium hand.

You are a limit Hold’em guru do you call with hands like K8o or fold them as Stox suggests in his book due to reverse implied? At least in Hold’em you can make the nuts with any hand. With 873 I believe are we are capped at something like #10? (Don’t have chart handy). And in the limit Hold’em example in the book the button raises and the SB calls. In Deuce the SB typically has a much stronger range than in Hold’em so ranges may not be as wide as you suggest.

Maybe it’s ok to call as it might be slightly profitable but none of us really knows unless it’s been modeled out somehow.

Stox recommendations have been shown to be quite a bit too tight for lhe. Basically he underestimated the value of the chips in the pot vs the rio of bad hands. So to answer your question I would not fold k8o to a co open.

I do realize that our hand is not good but I’d guess we have over 25% equity hot/cold vs even the tightest ranges.

Besides the great pot odds and the open coming from LP, we are closing the action. Sometimes 873xx is actually the best hand here (esp online). It's a good point to bring up that SB cc range here is def stronger than the equivalent spot in LHE. And there are some RIO considerations.

There are few live games and/or tourney spots I'd fold it, but online or against lag/tag ranges I'm defending 873xx nearly 100%.

I read "cc" as check-call, and I would not advocate check-call with a big hand hardly ever, and villain in this hand is not in a position to do it. I'll admit I'm confused by the reference.

For villain this is a standard spot -- facing two bets in position multiway vs wide ranges after 2:2:2 & 2:2:2 -- to use a two-step approach to underrep a hand and get additional action from players who would A) jam the top of their range if we call in the middle, B) fold weaker hands to more action or C) likely bet/call on the river. There are two opponents and a lot of ways for this to work out, and they compound to more bets going in often.

If villain 3bets, the opener may fold and the raiser may break and not make enough to call the river, meaning we get one additional bet of profit in the pot. If we smooth call the opener can call and draw dead, and the raiser has a strong incentive to barrel or bet his hand for value on the river. This seems pretty straightforward.

Three-betting a big hand is basically never bad, but this is a spot where I often take semi-passive lines in position vs multiple players with a hand that isn't vulnerable. That's why I mentioned it.

I mean, none of this is a sure thing, but this line has worked pretty well for me and I see it enough from other players to consider it.

Before it quit working I did some sims with Galt's and various iterations of (877-) hands. 873 does okay vs two opponent ranges heavy in 3-card Eights, less than 21% vs two opponents if one of them has either a D1 to an 8 or better. between 21-24% vs two D2s containing a Deuce depending on blocking effects.

It does about as well hot and cold in that situation as 874, though 874 playability is obviously worse as it doesn't make strong draws or block them.

To give you an idea how close the 87x hands run, 876 vs two D2 hands containing a Deuce usually has 19-20%. Hard to believe, but 87x starting hands are all pretty bad vs multiple opponents and not that different in terms of raw equity.