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Old 02-24-2017, 05:01 AM   #1
RolldUpTrips
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2-7 TD interesting turn spot

80/160 mix at Bellagio. Folds to my c/o with 2223. I raise and both blinds call. 2:2:3. I catch 3 high cards and it checks around. 1:2:3. I catch #3. SB, a passive fish, bets and BB, a good, known player raises. It's on me.

I started to post a paragraph with my postmortem analysis of the spot and some pros and cons of each play, but instead I think I will just leave it open and post something later.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:50 AM   #2
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

I feel like this depends very much on the particulars of the small blind. Like some guys will always chase here for two more / never fold any pat in case you are making a play. Other guys just play the strength of their hand and obv his hand sucks. With no clear read I would obv raise.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:38 PM   #3
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

With a passive that is betting and getting raised (by a "good" player) I think GTO would be to flat/over call and decide river (or before river if SB 4bets after u flat). I agree with deathmonkey that BBs range is somewhat wide enough for you making a 4bet. I know I double talk a lot but this is a luckbox game so saving or making enough bets are somewhat important. By the discards 2 from bb and 3 by you on first draw says it says that 5 latest cards have been high in row so it is no surprise when SB takes 1 and BB 2 and both hit and by you hitting nr3 it is a raise - call (cuz what are the odds that all 3 hits 6 perfect low cards in row) , standard is that bb is making a move with 9 or even T low trying to isolate.

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 02-24-2017 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:45 PM   #4
RolldUpTrips
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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I feel like this depends very much on the particulars of the small blind. Like some guys will always chase here for two more / never fold any pat in case you are making a play. Other guys just play the strength of their hand and obv his hand sucks. With no clear read I would obv raise.
My overwhelming standard play is, of course, to raise. I can tell you that SB will not call 2 more here.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:17 PM   #5
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

This is a unique spot since at least 1 of them is drawing dead (since you've seen 3 2s).

It seems you're trying to keep whoever is drawing dead in for the last draw and you are concerned 3-betting after D2 may blow one of them off the pot since after the pot was "small" on D2 since checked around on D1?

Are you expecting SB, who claimed to be passive, to bet-3-bet? If SB does 3! after you call, are you planning to call-raise in that case or call-call?
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Old 02-27-2017, 02:52 AM   #6
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

I think he just thinks sb has a crappy hand and will fold and the other guy will call down usually. So he is trying to get one more bet in a different way. I think it's kinda close cuz some of our pat range probably does wanna coldcall this spot but we also have a hand we can get greedy with. If I made a wheel here it is simply a must raise but this hand seems ok for the changeup.
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Old 02-27-2017, 02:34 PM   #7
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

What do we do if it goes pat/pat/pat and BB leads? Again we have best hand almost always and SB isn't calling 2, and maybe not 1. If we raise both should fold at high frequencies.

Reality is it always goes triple pat, check to us and 1-2 crying calls.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:39 AM   #8
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
My overwhelming standard play is, of course, to raise. I can tell you that SB will not call 2 more here.
That's a key assumption. Makes me want to c2c (not sure what you think BB thinks your range looks like when u do this) and bet/raise river. If river goes check/check, I wouldn't be surprised if you get 2 calls w your underrepped hand.

Also, if BB is a good reg, then it will help protect your range when you take this line in the future.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:43 AM   #9
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

With action and draws so far, turn could definitely be opened by SB D1 hand, raise is probably a weaker pat trying to isolate, no reason to give either credit for a strong pat, but would think neither is likely to fold anything legit (good draw or pat) so I would raise and expect to get called by both, called on river by at least one.
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:27 PM   #10
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

While I agree BB could very likely be trying to parlay ko hero and getting SB to draw or even fold (?) w a 98 or something like that, OP's seems confident in his read that SB will not call the 3!

That SB is also described as "passive fish" makes it less likely he is correctly betting most D1.

Online, I think the hand would play out as you described: SB bets the D1, BB raises his strong D1 to ko hero and keep SB from patting; Hero 3! and everybody calls (maybe someone even caps like #5/#6). One or both villains don't believe Hero's 3-pat and grit their teeth and pat their own rough hands intending to x/c river, another draws (possibly drawing dead) and we get a ton of bets. But in this live mix at mid stakes in Bellagio terms, I think population will err on the nitty side.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:14 AM   #11
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

i feel like there are more than a few players that would also raise like a 7234 in ops spot and that other players in the game may also perceive this
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:42 PM   #12
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

This thread is just making me really want to play live mix. But I'm a) not old enough to play in Vegas, b) not in Vegas, c) not even close to rolled for 80/160. Maybe someday...
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:33 PM   #13
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Don't worry it sounds more fun than it is
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:29 PM   #14
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Turn - Cold 3, re-raise to 5 if that caps the action. I might just call 4 if you are now heads up and can go to the felt.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:27 PM   #15
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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Turn - Cold 3, re-raise to 5 if that caps the action. I might just call 4 if you are now heads up and can go to the felt.
What range of hands 4B turn and how are you doing vs. that range?
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:29 PM   #16
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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What range of hands 4B turn and how are you doing vs. that range?
The range assigned would depend on which of these guys makes it 4. I would tend to believe SB has something very good if he makes it 4. If SB decided to bail, I would think BB would 4 bet 86+, actually probably any made 8 except the roughest, considering in this case that the 3 bet came from the guy that just drew 3.

A #3 is a pretty good hand , you know, and it's way better than what they have so we're crushing, especially when we choked the deuces, but I'll start believing when "a good, known" player is showing a willingness to put 6+ big bets in the pot.

I just don't see how cold calling two to keep people in the pot is going to net as much as just blasting away heads up.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:52 AM   #17
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Deuce blockers and action so far mean BB's raising range is weak enough to 3b and certainly cap if it stays 3-ways. Not convinced without special info a 4b range gets much wider than #5.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:33 AM   #18
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Rapid fire,

Need to focus on relative, not absolute ranges. The fact we see three deuces doesn't matter if 4B, no one is 4B without a deuce, question is how good is their hand.

My experience is Bellagio mix plays nitty, and most live players aren't 4Bing without a made 7. Maybe #5 but we are just flipping vs that range.
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:52 AM   #19
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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Deuce blockers and action so far mean BB's raising range is weak enough to 3b and certainly cap if it stays 3-ways. Not convinced without special info a 4b range gets much wider than #5.
No one is saying he has a good hand.
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Old 03-06-2017, 02:37 AM   #20
Hero Value
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Both call and raise are pretty reasonable here. My default would also be raise. I think it somewhat depends on your potential snow frequency here too.
If we do 3bet and face a 4bet, then no, I'm not capping it. Just calling down.

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I think it's kinda close cuz some of our pat range probably does wanna coldcall this spot but we also have a hand we can get greedy with. If I made a wheel here it is simply a must raise but this hand seems ok for the changeup.
Interesting. I would actually be more inclined to flat here with a wheel. To ensure at least getting 1 extra bet from sb. And being safe in the knowledge that they are actually putting money in dead, and that our hand isn't at all susceptible, like #3 might be.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:22 AM   #21
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

Well you said that if you 3 bet and get 4 bet you would just call down (which I agree with, generally). That says to me that we want exactly 4 bets to go in with this hand on turn and river. They go in equally well if we call and raise river. Now compare how the wheel fares in both situations. I think it's clearly better to jam the wheel and hope we cooler someone.
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:31 AM   #22
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

We feel really really stupid when we coldcall, SB calls, and they both draw, or SB pats and BB draws. Maybe that doesn't happen in this game, idk, but it happens enough online that I'll almost always threebet.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:49 AM   #23
Hero Value
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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We feel really really stupid when we coldcall, SB calls, and they both draw, or SB pats and BB draws. Maybe that doesn't happen in this game, idk, but it happens enough online that I'll almost always threebet.
No, we really don't. Both of those are fine results for us.
We probably feel more "stupid" when we 3bet and they both just fold.
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:15 AM   #24
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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No, we really don't. Both of those are fine results for us.
They are, in fact, very bad. This is quite like freezing against a player who isn't pat - we're dumping equity like mad by not getting that third bet in.

Quote:
We probably feel more "stupid" when we 3bet and they both just fold.
This basically never happens. And if it does we might possibly be missing one bet from SB. Anything BB folds here was never putting more money in.
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:14 PM   #25
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Re: 2-7 TD interesting turn spot

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...We probably feel more "stupid" when we 3bet and they both just fold.
Seems unlikely. If not unlikely we have a fantastic exploit.
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