in SB with 2459K.

folded to CO who opens, BTN folds, I call from SB, BB calls.

2:3:1

24577

i plan on check/raising to force out BB and for value

check > check > and CO checks behind.

2457A.


- is my plan to c/r optimal here? and reasoning is fine?

- what should i make of CO's check back?

- if i was D1 instead of D2 and it goes 1:2:1 or even 2:1:1, isn't CO still supposed to be betting to make the D2 pay?

- is it always on me now to just bet my hand after the check through, even though i didn't improve?

thanks

It will (read: should) never go 1:2:1 as played since you will (should) be 3betting with all your 1 card draws predraw for value and balance (i.e. so people don't know when you have a good vs less good 1c draw.

The check/raise line seems good and I'd expect CO to bet into the d2 and d3 100%, but I'm a 2-7 newb so looking forward to what others have to say. I'm not sure we want to push the bb from the pot considering we have a smooth draw to the nuts. Is our hand a good one to play multiway?

Yes

He probably has something he’s not in love with such as 8753 but he should be betting that anyway

Yes

Yeah you should bet the turn here otherwise a bet will probably only go in when CO is pat and there is more pressure on middle guy to fold as he does not know what CO will do

Yeah you're right about that, because i'd be raising then just c-betting myself. But i think you guys get the idea of how i was trying to frame my question.

I also expect D1 to be c-betting there like 99% of the time so my own take is, yes, it's not a hand he is in love with but villain is either unrefined or the hand is quote motley, and still even then, shouldn't he be betting to try and get HU? And if his hand is so bad he can D1 > bet and if it gets HU he can pat and start snowing on me.

I was considering 3-betting pre. Think if i had another 2, 4, or 5 i'd prob have gone for it. Maybe i'm supposed to anyway.

that last point is something that makes a lot of sense, and isn't something i'd thought about previously.

as it turned out i bet and both of them folded, so i imagine villain had something really dumb like 5789? 3457? 4578? who knows

No way 7543 folded, that's a strong hand even if a little rough. I wouldn't be surprised if Villain had a 9 in their hand or else a rough 8 draw.

Against anyone decent CR flop is quite bad

I appreciate that great players such as yourself are active in this forum and so don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but it gets a bit frustrating constantly having to respond to 1 line posts like this or RobChill's in the archie thread with "why?" It doesn't really help me to know that x/r flop is bad against decent players in this spot without any explanation because this spot is very specific. It's a classic give a man a fish/teach a man to fish situation. So sure now I know if I ever cold call small blind, have bb come along, 2/3/1, and make a wheel draw that I shouldn't check raise against decent players. But that doesn't help me generalize to other spots.

You can just call but a check-raise on the flop is fine.

With a paired 7 and a premium 2457 we are probably around 55-56% equity against the D1 CO range reflecting the fact that we don't know whether or not made it's pat. Now even though we have >50% equity we can still get slightly value-owned when C/R. You need 67% equity against a range to prevent yourself from potentially value owning yourself if Villain will always re-raise better and that's usually the case here.


But there is equity denial from the other player which is definitely worth something given the dead money in the pot. And if he calls with a D1 to an 8 or something that's fine too.


So I'm not too concerned with possibly value owning myself a little bit on flop due to equity denial, however, if we modeled it out reflecting for the times the D3 stays involved it may indeed turn out to be pure value from C/R

you ignore a lot of other factors. for example, what does our check call draw 1 range consist of if we are c/r all 7 draws.

Also 55% equity seems a bit hi against a good players cutoff draw 1 range when you are spotting them 1 draw, not to mention we lose a little equity in the hand having to play it oop

How about you try answering the “why”? I agree you aren’t going to learn anything if you can’t extrapolate to other situations. I could explain more but I probably won’t. Sorry.
Also scotch you are wrong

Doesn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth and proceeds to look a gift horse in the mouth. Seriously, though, some people in these threads, like DD and myself, don't NEED to do this. We only give to the forums and don't take at all, and it's not good enough? World-class players respond to your questions for free and you complain that the answers aren't good enough? Would you rather we not respond? He's GIVING you a fish and that's not a bad thing. He could sell you the fish as we do the fishing lessons.

Hey you guys write one liners so just because I didn’t list out every single factor does not mean I ignored it in my thinking lol..but in this example the pairing of the 7s is relatively important as well as the fact the other guy D3. So you would be wrong if you extrapolate from this that I c/r all D1 7s, every hand is different

Crunch the math yourself. It’s a standard D1 CO range that includes stuff like 7653, 8653, 8753 etc. We have a 2, and paired 7s. The guy D3 also has a deuce. Seen a 9. My spreadsheet incorporates card removal. He’s still drawing around 73% of the time and we are flipping the 8% of the time he has nines.

But even if it came out to be 53% or whatever I still indicated there is some slight value owning. And yes we are OOP, but we are also eliminating another guy that has position and of course we cannot neglect equity denial.

I think the EVs are close, when that is the case I chose the play that will more often eliminate a player

Oh I think the last time I was wrong was back in early January 2004, I remember it vividly because the Christmas tree was still up lol

thats the last time you were wrong or the last time you thought you were wrong?

98.4% chance of the former imo

Yeah the more I look at the more I like the C/R with the paired 77 vs CO range

Most common scenario is the CO is still D1 and BB improved to a D2. Therefore when just calling this usually gives out around 20% equity to him (slightly less due to realization but still) and against 4.5 bigs in pot after flop this is around .9 big bets. We have around half of that equity share taking into account inferior position.

When we are up against the top of villains range going in into the first draw that is say he does have a premium 7 draw even though we block two sevens and two deuces are blocked we are only losing around .6 big bets on flop betting round.

As far as extrapolation goes the equation changes if we are up against a UTG/HJ range, have not paired 7s, and BB draws 2 meaning many more deuceless hands. There I just call.

This is not the ideal place for the discussion but I will respond by saying that if you or DD, who like you say are doing a great service to this forum by posting here and are the reason I tell my friends that Draw & OP is the best subforum on 2p2, do not wish to give explanations for whatever reason, then that is fine and I will assume any 1 liner posts from here on out are intentional.

What made me get in rant-mode above was not just in this thread or even just in this subforum I've been seeing lots of exchanges where a poster responds with 1 line unjustified (albeit generally from someone with less pedigree than you or DD), and then someone asks why, and then they respond, taking 3 posts to do what could've been accomplished in 1. Sometimes the 1 liners come off a bit glib because they seem to imply that it's obvious whatever the 1 line says is obvious or not requiring justification/explanation. I understand completely if the actual reason is not wanting to reveal proprietary info for free.

I'll make sure to include my resume next time before i post any mix advise.

lol I can't resist chiming in on this and add some stuff

I know we may have been somewhat salty with other as I gave you some tough love but I agree with you on this one. Rolled up, great poster explains his stuff, great guy. DD I like him, he hates me for whatev reason, I will deal. The other one liner guy lol


But I will say this, none of this is rocket science. Was actually just talking to an ex co-worker tonight, a guy who I used to deal with a with a lot of nasty stuff like estimating our cash flow for the next decade with so many assumptions flying around it's crazy. Told him I was debating with some guys who weren't good at math on game where the object was to make the best five card low and he laughed. So a little healthy check the ego at the door may be in order imo

I don’t hate anybody but I do find your personality combination pretty annoying: overconfident and wrong. Playing high stakes poker for many years it is a combination I’m very familiar with, and always welcome in the game!

Well there absolutely has to be a little jelly in the belly or something going on. And just so we are clear, I am joking about never being wrong since 2004. I mean there is really no other response to a “you’re wrong” along with a smiley face.

I’m incredibly detailed in my posts for a few reasons, one is for complete beginners so they get an indication on how to handle slightly different situations and how they may be different. Secondly we can get to the heart of the matter for advanced players and possibly challenge assumptions and conclusions. You will never see me leave a one liner that is somewhat disparaging. Like George Constanta would say you guys are a bunch of “delicate geniuses!” Lol

Scotch, i'll be honest, I'm incredibly not detailed in my posts for a few reasons (well maybee 1). There are a lot of good-great players that do/may post or lurk here that I play with on a daily basis online or live. If they are doing something wrong, I'd rather they continue doing it wrong to be honest. Sometimes, I write out a longer detailed post, then delete is, because the truth is its just going to cost me money and it won't benefit me at all.

I'm not sure if you are playing a lot of mix online or not (if you are and want to trade screen names shoot me a pm). But there's not a ton of incentive to say here's a detailed breakdown of everything you are doing wrong vs me, here's how to correct it.

Fair enough my man, I just think that while there are lurkers the greatest benefit is to yourself when you really get down in the details. And as I mentioned not everything I post is correct so if I'm detailed in my thought process any flaws in assumptions/thinking can be identified. And lastly, when I choose to engage in something I don't get half motion, it's just in my personality to go all out.

But I don't play poker man, if that ever changes I'll shoot you a pm ha ha

Posters on 2p2 (probably more in other forums than this one) often feel the need to be right and convince others that they are right. Or at a minimum to convince the OP that their line is the best line, in the hope that the OP picks their response as the best response a la a site like StackExchange. If I'm the OP or someone reading a thread, I'm much more likely to be convinced by someone giving an explanation than someone giving a 1 liner, even if the 1 liner comes from a pedigreed pro (and sorry Rob Chill, I don't know who you are, but one can't both justify their 1 liners by saying "look how good/experienced I am" without proving that's what you are). But seeing as you pro crushers don't need to be here to begin with, you probably don't care if people agree with you or not and if anything you'd probably prefer they disagree with you so you can exploit them in games.

I like to tell people that this might be the last forum on 2p2 where true crushers frequently post/comment. I hope that doesn't change.