**WWE Raw/Smackdown Viewing Thread** - Page 21 - Wrestling -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

I didn't hate the ending there at all. I mean, yeah it was a little slow, but it's exactly like the Undertaker's Ministry promos from the 90's. People just have a shorter attention span. I liked it. It was a little darker than the WWE has done recently.

IMO, there is absolutely no way that they aren't building to a big epic Cena heel turn coming up in the future. I mean, even ****ing Jerry Lawler is saying that the boos have to be wearing on him.

Good Raw. Johnny Ace is killing it recently, Ziggler running around with the title is pretty sweet.

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12-27-2011 , 01:27 AM

#502

SarcasticRat

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Meh, just seems like it's another angle that's setting up the potential of a Cena heel turn but then he prevails and resists the temptation because of hustle loyalty respect etc. They've gone to this well too many times for me to have any kind of optimism.

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12-27-2011 , 04:30 AM

#503

Dylan

346 days til Christmas

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,607

I re-watched the Kane promo and it wasn't near as bad as you guys said it was imo. He's just talking that way to make his character seem darker. The crowd is always going to have the "Let's go Cena, Cena sucks" chant until he completely turns heel.

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12-27-2011 , 04:39 AM

#504

theginger45

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Just woke up, interested to watch Raw later. Seems eventful and AIDSful in equal measure.

Also stoked for next week's interference in the Ziggler/Punk bout.

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12-27-2011 , 09:26 AM

#505

rorrrr

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,481

watched the whole of raw without checkin this thread.

actually thought it was one of the better ones of the year.

ending wasnt sure if i liked it or not, think the lets go cena/cena sucks chant actually helped the segment. even tho it happened way early

awesome that dolph is no1 contendor. shame the match is probably going to be over shadowed by the "BEST IN THE WOOOORRRLD ......

...

Spoiler:

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12-27-2011 , 11:02 AM

#506

12ressiMorP

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,285

I liked the idea of the ending, but it would have worked better in Philly

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12-27-2011 , 11:09 AM

#507

tpir

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 10,208

I liked the idea of the ending too but it would have worked better if they didn't let Kane ad-lib for 10 minutes and if it didn't close the show. At least they didn't give Cena a chance to respond!

Overall a very good ep and probably more like a solid B/B- since the ending shouldn't weight that heavily, but it definitely ran the gamut from legit LOLOL to "holy **** I would be really embarrassed if one of my friends walked in right now and saw me watching this" (relative to normal pro graps shame.)

Also the IC title getting pseudo-buried the past few weeks is kind of

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12-27-2011 , 11:11 AM

#508

[Phill]

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No way that was ad/lib'ed

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12-27-2011 , 11:41 AM

#509

tpir

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 10,208

the opening probably wasn't but he rambled on and on and on and you could see him searching for evil words to use IMO. not saying the entire thing was Kane at the improv but I think he took a few liberties and wandered off the path a little.

regardless, i will stop trashing on it and wait and see how it fits into the larger strategy

Cena finally turning heel could be epic and i would be all about cheering for him if he just dropped the poop jokes and kayfabe breaking.

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12-27-2011 , 12:30 PM

#510

theginger45

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Raw thoughts forthcoming:

Spoiler:

- LOOK IN MY EEEEEEYYYYYYYEEEEESSSS....OMG it's Johnny Ace instead. THAT. IS. AMAZING. I love this guy. "You expected one thing, but you got another!" Soooooo much heat, this is epic.

- Pretty safe to say Chicago likes CM Punk.

- WWE are trying to recreate Austin/McMahon here with Punk/Ace. Not sure it's gonna work. "Several management classes", LOL. "Aliens are wrong", haha. This guy gets better and better.

- The huge YOU CAN'T WRESTLE chant and Punk's AJPW reference were gold.

- I really, really, really, really hope those promo videos are for who I think they are. Can't wait for next week.

- Booker singing to Cody on SD was terrible, but made me lol.

- Cole "I don't even like Christmas or New Year's" - heel alert!

- Apparently it would make Lawler's Christmas if Booker won. Wouldn't want to be his son or daughter. Actually, that was true anyway given how Too Sexy turned out.

- Wow. Chicago HATES Cena. I guess we knew that.

- Kelly Kelly looking amazing.

- They mentioned Brodus! They must be keeping him in mind at least. Good news.

- Otunga is doing a great job in his new role. Good to see.

- I guess they are building to a Ziggler/Swagger match at WM. I hope Ziggler stays heel.

- Eve looks good in white and gold.

- Cole gave Lawler "Serious Putty" for Christmas. For a Lawler joke, that was hilarious.

- LOL at the ref slipping out of the ring during the 3-count. Haha.

- Cena doing some quality ass-kissing here.

- WTF, Miz asks for a match for closure and then counts himself out? Nice booking, WWE.

- R-Truth chant, lol. Guess he's a face now? He's acting like a heel. WATER BOTTLE OF DOOM!

- There's a kid with a 'Justin #1 Announcer' sign behind the announcers' desk. That has to be a relative of Justin Roberts. No-one likes announcers that much.

- Big Show manages to get his arm free literally after about 3 seconds of trying? Come on WWE, that's ****ing stupid even by your standards. Why didn't he just do it before?

- "Sexual Chocolate" chant. I love Chicago.

- I guess the tech guy was late with Bryan's music. Made it look like he got down the ramp in about 1.5 seconds.

- Hahaha, ADR looking depressed in an expensive-looking wheelchair with Ricardo sporting a bow-tie on his neck brace is the GOAT combo. They need to keep him on TV while he's injured just for this. At the very least, this injury is a chance for them to freshen up his gimmick just a little and maybe add a couple of tweaks.

- ADR needs to tell the Bellas they're 4s at best at some point.

- IMO they need to stop having Punk slick his hair back like that. It looks ridiculous. He needs to go back to having his hair long like he did when he first came into WWE.

- Punk/Swagger was decent. Swagger needs a push in 2012.

- Ziggler getting a shot at the WWE title is fantastic. So well deserved. His celebration as if he'd won the title was awesome too.

- Enjoyed the Kane promo, as rambling as it was. The Cena thing is interesting. They MUST be building towards a heel turn with all this.

- Good episode I thought, limited AIDS and a few lols as well as some decent wrestling.

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12-27-2011 , 02:05 PM

#511

SharkTank43

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His botched lines when he first debuted sucked, but Ace has been pretty great from the start imo

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12-27-2011 , 03:01 PM

#512

ItsRainingMen

master of your domain

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kane promo needed to be done by someone BETTER than kane. my dream scenario i posted a while back if i were booking cena was to have miz/truth when they were still a team effectively doing this, luring cena over to hate the fans slowly and steadily until he just finally turned on them and went full heel. that woulda been awesome and that's basically what they're trying to execute. should be miz in kane's role

problems with kane:

1. he's ****ing horrible on the mic. seriously that babbling nonsense was ****ing nut awful
2. he's not a top heel, let alone top heel on the flagship show. what's the endgame here? midcard big red ****** turns cena heel and acts as his paul bearer? awful. there's no believable scenario where this program with kane ends with cena going heel. cena will RISE ABOVE HATE like he always does and bury kane. hopefully this leads to kane being done with the wwe cuz my marking out for masked kane is pretty much over now that he's talking

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12-27-2011 , 03:53 PM

#513

Dylan

346 days til Christmas

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,607

The heel turn isn't happening until the Raw after Wrestlemania. Cena is going to go over the Rock at mania, then cut a promo the next night on Raw saying he was able to beat the GOAT even with the fans booing him. He'll say he doesn't need the fans to be the best. The Kane promo is just like the Piper one, it's just another step in Cena turning heel which isn't going to happen until after Mania.

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12-27-2011 , 04:17 PM

#514

LKJ

Smugly Contemptuous

Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 95,986

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpir

Overall a very good ep and probably more like a solid B/B- since the ending shouldn't weight that heavily

IMO it's perfectly fair game for the beginning and end of shows to weigh that heavily in judging a show. Writers know very well that the taste you leave your audience with has a lot of bearing over how the overall show is perceived, so it's on them to finish strong.

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Originally Posted by tpir

not saying the entire thing was Kane at the improv

Just the thought of "Kane at the improv" made me LOL.

I'm under the impression that they don't let the talent go off-script very often anymore, and when they do they probably let it be someone like Punk/Cena/Y2J who is clearly capable...but I dunno, you could be right.

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12-27-2011 , 04:20 PM

#515

Wallypop

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LKJ

I'm under the impression that they don't let the talent go off-script very often anymore, and when they do they probably let it be someone like Punk/Cena/Y2J who is clearly capable...but I dunno, you could be right.

Obviously Jack Swagger doesn't go off script, as he's clearly staring at cue cards during his promos.

Last edited by Wallypop; 12-27-2011 at 04:30 PM.

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12-27-2011 , 04:45 PM

#516

theginger45

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I'm gonna go ahead and stick up for Kane here. He's not charismatic in the same vein as a Cena or a Punk but ****, there are so few guys out there who could pull off his gimmick. It does seem out of place in 2011 but the guy has been doing his ridiculous 'Big Red Monster' schtick - and getting over as face or heel - for a very long time.

Stuff like this is about as much as you could ask for from a guy playing a demented monster character:

And this right here is still (IMO) one of the funniest moments in WWE history.

Kane is perfectly capable of cutting a promo and I'd wager if they'd given him a gimmick that wasn't so crazy and over-the-top he'd be an above-average mic worker. Working the stick isn't just about catchphrases and ****, it's about getting over, and like it or not, without really ever having a 5-star or even 4-star match, Kane has been super over for FOURTEEN YEARS. Gotta give him some credit IMO.

/Kane mark

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12-27-2011 , 04:53 PM

#517

ItsRainingMen

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan

it's probably not gonna happen and WM is gonna suck ass

cena goes over rock obv

rock and cena shake hands at the end of the match ------> rock bottom and posing to close the show and send fans home happy

then happy go lucky cena will talk about beating the rock, fans like him and hate him, announcers will put him over as "controversial" and he'll go back to burying everyone who holds or attempts to hold the WWE title as he begins his 62 year reign

fact of the matter is cena is more valuable in his current incarnation than as a tweener/heel. if you're paying money to come boo cena, paying money to buy "we hate cena" or "cena sucks" shirts that go to wwe and to cena by extension, do u honestly think they're going to change him?

they turn him heel, they lose the kids, they turn him back into a snarky face, they risk not getting the kids back or not winning over the "we hate cena" crowd that you hope to appease by turning him heel.

fact of the matter is they make more money off cena with half the crowd hating his hoganesque gimmick and have the crowd adoring him than they would trying to go some roundabout way to try to turn him into the rock.

this is heel cena. pandering to the kids and trolling everyone else, and getting money from both sides of the spectrum cuz the people who hate him are too ****ing stupid to realize they're making him more valuable

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12-27-2011 , 04:56 PM

#518

[Phill]

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Still amazes me how bad his ring gear looks. They didnt even attempt to make it look good and that shot on youtube of the old gear sums up how bad it is nicely, lol.

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12-27-2011 , 04:58 PM

#519

Wallypop

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I expect though that they know that if there is any chance to get the WWE back over with the general public and make it the thing it once was, the only way is to make people hate a central figure. They did it with Hogan in the nWo when he turned, and they know they are going to have to do it with Cena. It's only a matter of time.

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12-27-2011 , 05:00 PM

#520

LKJ

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Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 95,986

Quote:

Originally Posted by theginger45

Working the stick isn't just about catchphrases and ****, it's about getting over, and like it or not, without really ever having a 5-star or even 4-star match, Kane has been super over for FOURTEEN YEARS. Gotta give him some credit IMO.

/Kane mark

His mic work has almost nothing to do with him being over, and it's his mic work that's getting bashed here.

A vast, vast majority of the love Kane gets is for the violent monster stuff, which is really cool when done well, and "when done well" is generally code for "when he just kicks ass and doesn't talk." Yes he has had his moments where he steps away from being a violent monster and says something funny or something, but that just isn't most of why he's over.

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12-27-2011 , 05:58 PM

#521

Bigdaddydvo

King of the Politics Forum

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 21,304

Best and Worst of Raw

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12-27-2011 , 06:47 PM

#522

theginger45

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LKJ

I do agree to an extent, but I still think everyone's being kinda harsh on Kane. It'd be very easy to be equally harsh on a lot of other guys on that roster.

Target should be the guy who decided to end the show with that promo, it def wasn't bigger material than Ziggler getting his title shot.

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12-27-2011 , 06:51 PM

#523

Wallypop

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I think what you guys are ragging on Kane for is unwarranted. He did a good job with his babbling, cryptic message to Cena. Like I said, it's exactly what Taker used to do in the Ministry. Long, drawn-out pauses in his speech. Almost growls in there, too.

Times have changed, and people want to be entertained, but the fact that you can accuse Kane's promo of being bad is ridiculous beyond belief. It definitely shouldn't have ended the show, but it was a good promo, and it got the job done.

Edit: Also, this Kane promo seems to have 2p2WC split right down the middle. Interesting. I think this is the first real issue that has been a site-wide split on something instead of 1 or 2 rogue opinions.

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12-27-2011 , 07:23 PM

#524

LKJ

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Quote:

Originally Posted by theginger45

I do agree to an extent, but I still think everyone's being kinda harsh on Kane. It'd be very easy to be equally harsh on a lot of other guys on that roster.

I mean, I know you read this board enough that you know that we don't run around giving hot stone massages to the rest of the roster when they bore the **** out of us too. Even Punk doesn't get a pass around here anymore.

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12-27-2011 , 07:47 PM

#525

theginger45

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LKJ

No, you're right, but I'm arguing that the reason Kane bored some of us here wasn't his fault (nor was it Snitsky's, for that matter). It was the ****ing lazy writers who can't be bothered to give him anything to work with. As has already been stated, Kane was almost certainly not just ad-libbing that promo. He did a decent job with what he had. Can't polish a turd etc.

#didntrealiseiwaswillingtospendsomuchtimedefending kane

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