I will get to the WrestleMania IV tournament on Thursday or Friday.

I don't know if you have any further info about this, but I remember either reading or hearing in an interview maybe with Hogan (but possibly someone else) recently that Andre didn't like Savage at all, but didn't kill him because he really liked Liz. Could you imagine getting in the ring with that guy if he legit didn't like you?

Can't say I'd heard that. I remember reading of Andre having a beef with Ultimate Warrior (shocker) and I think with Bad News Brown, but I don't remember reading about any animosity between he and Savage.

It would definitely suck to step in the ring with him and feel like he didn't like you.

It was Hogan who said it.
http://www.wwe.com/classics/hulk-hog...avage-26214976

They did an interview with Savage's team on Superstars prior to Survivor Series where they acknowledged the bad history between Savage and Steamboat. Wasn't anything major, but they at least didn't pretend it didn't exist (like they might have 2-3 years later when they expected us to forget Ricky Steamboat's freaking NAME).

I think the idea behind putting Savage's team together was getting guys who hated Honky more than anything. That's why Honky's team was essentially a job squad.

Yeah, and their mutual hatred of Honky was kind of a big reason I was able to make peace with the whole thing, because I can easily accept that as a rationale for teaming up.

That match is the biggest surprise to me so far in this project in terms of being more entertaining on my TV than it is on paper.

Yeah, it was super entertaining. Watching Honky get his ass kicked was so satisfying. I watched it again a few months ago for the PPV draft and it held up really well.

I still can't process the fact that they attempted to start off Honky as a babyface character. At least they had the good sense to bail pretty quickly. There was a heel Savage vs. face Honky match that I ran across, but it wasn't any good.

WrestleMania IV

Date: March 27, 1988

Link: http://network.wwe.com/video/v31356285

First Round: Randy Savage vs. "The Natural" Butch Reed



Background: Explained in the link above how the tournament came to pass. No history between the two wrestlers.

The Match: Gorilla compliments how beautiful Elizabeth is. Jesse starts taking the opportunity to bag on Vince about how creepy he is when he ogles her. I always loved the way Jesse clearly openly loved ripping on his boss with the full knowledge that he could hide behind "just doing my job." I also loved his incessant rips on Joey Marella when he worked with Gorilla.

Go-behind and waistlock by Savage to open, but Butch backs him into the corner to collapse him, then drops a fist on his face. Smashes him into one turnbuckle, but takes him into the other and Savage blocks and gives it back to him. Savage attempts a suplex, but Reed blocks and executes one of his own. Elbow drop, two-count.

The Natural methodically works his offense, which is kind of dull honestly. Fistdrop off the second rope isn't bad but still doesn't excite me. He loses the advantage when he drops his head too early as Savage comes off the ropes, but he turns things right back in his favor with a hard clothesline that floors Savage. Reed starts to head toward the top, but wastes a ton of time jawing at Elizabeth, and it allows Savage to get to his feet, throw him off the top, and then go up top to hit the flying elbow to advance to the quarterfinals.



Result: Randy Savage via pinfall (5:07)

Rating: This was pedestrian. Butch Reed's offense is nothing thrilling. Savage didn't get to do much until he launched the sudden comeback win at the end. 1.5 stars out of 5.

Quarterfinals: Randy Savage vs. Greg Valentine



Background: Savage defeated Butch Reed; Valentine unfortunately defeated Ricky Steamboat in round one to rob us of Savage-Steamboat. I understand that with Steamboat leaving the company you just job him to whoever, but I just don't think it would have been so bad to have him go over Valentine in a flukey way and then go under to Savage.

Also Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant both got disqualified in the first round, so make no mistake: Randy Savage and Ted DiBiase were the only believable winners left in the tournament.

The Match: Valentine takes it to Macho at the bell, but Macho fights his way out of the corner, whip into the other corner, snapmare, knee drop. Just a two-count. Valentine lays in a forearm to flip the momentum. Goes up top, drops an elbow on Savage's arm. Follows shortly after with a solid shoulderbreaker. Tosses Savage outside and then follows him out with an elbow from the apron and then multiple chops. For good measure, he rams Savage into the steel barricade.



Savage back up to the apron, Valentine meets him there, turns him around, and lays some elbows in at Savage's throat. Valentine at least puts on a better offensive show than Butch Reed did. The Hammer attempts to lock in the figure-four, but Savage gets a rope break before the hold is ever on. Suplex by Valentine, two. Backbreaker, also two.

Savage catches Valentine following him into the corner, hits a bodyslam and then follows with a top-rope axhandle to the ring. Jimmy Hart with the distraction, Valentine with a thumb to the throat. Valentine for the suplex, Savage blocks and hits his own. Another top-rope axhandle connects, but the Hammer hit him on the way down as well.

Valentine attempts one more time to get the figure-four on, but Savage rolls him into a small package during the attempt and gets the surprise three-count.

Result: Randy Savage via pinfall (6:06)

Rating: Yeah I don't know, it was a little better than the Butch Reed match but it's still too short and undeveloped to love too much. 2 stars out of 5.

Semifinals: Randy Savage vs. One Man Gang



Background: Savage had defeated Butch Reed and Greg Valentine; One Man Gang had defeated Bam Bam Bigelow and then had advanced through the second round via a bye. Ted DiBiase had already secured a spot in the finals, making the result of this one super obvious.

The Match: The two men grapple for position, neither get a meaningful advantage but Savage grabs the Gang's beard and hangs him over the top rope with it by jumping outside. Gang returns and takes over the advantage pretty quickly anyway.

One Man Gang holds the advantage for a couple of minutes, but misses on a splash and then Savage knocks him outside the ring. Axhandle to the floor by Macho. Back into the ring, Savage goes for a bodyslam and fails, which returns control to the 400-lber.

Endgame comes when Slick hits the apron, Savage takes his bait and goes after him, Slick tosses his cane to the Gang who hits Savage from behind. He got away with that one, but proceeds to be a ****ing idiot and then openly follow Savage around the ring trying to hit him with it again. The referee, who was never bumped, obviously sees this and disqualifies the Gang.



Result: Randy Savage via DQ (4:05)

Rating: Worthless. 0.5 stars out of 5. You know, for a guy they wanted to put over as a world champion, they sure didn't book Macho very strong in this. Every win looks pretty flukey.

Tournament Final for the WWF Title: Randy Savage vs. Ted DiBiase



Background: Savage had gone through Reed, Valentine, and One Man Gang. DiBiase defeated Duggan and Muraco before getting a bye through the semifinals to the title match.

The Match: Liz wears her hottest number of the night to the ring. Of course, it's 80s hot and not half-naked like we get out of every diva today, but the girl-next-door thing was always a big part of her charm anyway.

DiBiase wrestles Savage into the corner, Savage elbows his way out, but Andre reaches in and trips Savage as he tries to follow. Referee Dave Hebner doesn't see. Savage comes off the ropes a moment later, and Andre does it again, once again undetected.

Million Dollar Man and Macho continue jostling for position, with Ted finally taking over and laying in some rights and then a clothesline. DiBiase's sunset flip fails when Savage punches him instead of going down. Still, it's mostly Ted in control, working the methodical offense like Butch Reed and Greg Valentine did before him.

Incidentally, legendary heel that he was, DiBiase just wasn't THAT great in the ring. He was like a notch better than Jake Roberts maybe. Savage successfully knocks Ted outside, tries to follow with an axhandle to the floor, but Andre again interferes by standing in the way and blocking Savage from attempting it. Savage goes and confers with Liz, and she heads to the back. Jesse: "I've seen this before, Gorilla." A Hogan chant begins.

As DiBiase lays in a reverse chinlock, sure enough, Elizabeth returns to the ring with Hogan. Hulk sets up a folding chair and sits down by Savage's corner. DiBiase sees him and gets distracted, but Savage is pretty beaten up by this point, and even after a delay Ted can follow. As the referee looks away, Andre tries to mess with Savage and Hogan runs around and breaks that up.

Gutwrench suplex by DiBiase. Bodyslam. Up to the top, but Savage beats him there and throws him off. Savage goes for the kill shot by heading up for the flying elbow, but Ted rolls out of the way. As Savage makes his way back to his feet, DiBiase locks in the Million Dollar Dream.

Savage starts to get a rope break, but Andre knocks Savage's hand off the ropes. Hebner goes and berates Andre, and while he does that, Hogan slips into the ring with his steel chair and clobbers DiBiase with it. Savage, having no idea that Hogan just clobbered Ted, sees his opponent laid out and goes up top for the flying elbow. 1-2-3, MASSIVE pop from an otherwise lame crowd at the Trump Plaza, and the Macho Man reaches the top of the mountain.



The celebration afterwards with Savage, Elizabeth and Hogan is one of the great iconic feel-good moments of The Golden Era.



Result: "…and NEW WWF Champion," Randy Savage via pinfall (9:27)

Rating: I mean…the match was nothing great. 2.5 stars out of 5. There wasn't a great match in Savage's run here. It was a fun tournament run, but it's more enjoyable when you stand back from it and enjoy the whole picture of it. The individual parts aren't as impressive. I'd give this match three stars if I counted just how gratifying it is to see the end of the match and the celebration afterward.

From your reviews macho man had a lot of ****ty matches

Literally everyone has been a part of a lot of ****ty matches. The best hitters in baseball also get out a lot, etc.

I'm surprised that's your takeaway from what I've written, because I've been giving out a lot of 3+-star ratings so far. I'm a harsh critic and not one to just mark out and hand out high ratings to everything that a wrestler I like participates in.

Savage's career to this point (and for a good while after) had been elite, not just in promos but in matches too.

Are you going by wMC (weighted Matches Created) to adjust for era? I mean hardly any 80's matches would hold up to even an average match by today's standards.

Nah I don't adjust for era. I give Savage-Steamboat from WM III a full five stars not because it was awesome then, but because it's a legit 5-star match even watching it today. If a match doesn't hold up today then it will be dinged accordingly.

Again I consider the body of work reviewed so far to be a very positive resume; the takeaway from the overall match reviews shouldn't be negative at all. I could do a thread where I only include a wrestler's matches when they're 3+ stars, and in Savage's case I could clearly fill up a thread and not run out very quickly, but I'm trying to tell the story of his whole career and not to just cherry-pick the biggest highlights.

Bryan Danielson though.

idk the most popular matches seem to hold up. Steamboat/Savage. the 5 Steamboat/Flair matches, Luger/Flair at SC 88, the first two war games matches, Funk/Flair matches, Windham/Flair matches, some Dusty matches. Reaching to Japan where Tenryu and Jumbo revolutionized professional wrestling on 6/5/89.

I can easily watch a match like Bryan vs HHH or Shield vs Wyatts and still watch Flair/Windham afterwards and see all of them as awesome.

I bet if I tried hard enough...

I'm guessing that some of the perception is that I'm calling a match ranging from 2-2.5 stars "a ****ty match." I'm not. I very much grade things on a bell curve, so a 2.5-star match falls into a description of "just okay, not really bad but not really good." 2 stars is getting closer to ****ty in that it's below average, but it's still taking up a decent chunk of the curve and it's not just blow-your-brains-out bad. Obviously the scale can go all the way down to 0 stars, which is defined as "matches against George Steele."

Thing with some of these matches reviewed too: sometimes I'm not blaming both wrestlers for things I ding them for. Sometimes I'm not even blaming either wrestler. Things like incredibly stupid booking, a really bad ending, or a match that only gets 4-5 minutes and thus doesn't give the wrestlers a great chance to ever get anything going? That's going to get downgraded as being a part of the match, and that's not me dinging Randy Savage. It's me dinging the booker, or whoever.

Obviously sometimes it's dinging the worker too; I won't shy away from doing that. I do strive for honest and credible rankings, so that a person doesn't see me give out an inflated rating, then click on the link and go "WTF is this ****." I mean obviously reasonable minds may differ and a person can disagree with me, but it's not going to be because I'm giving a free pass to a wrestler that I like.

A George Steele match isn't supposed to be 4 star work though and we all know this. It's a sideshow and did what it was supposed to do usually. It was entertaining for different reasons. If I care why these 2 guys are fighting and believe one of them to be in physical danger, that's just as good for me sometimes.

Hogan/Andre was the best example of that because Andre was booked awesome even when he couldn't move. Guy maybe never had a "good match" in his life, at least by the time I started watching. But I watched it and loved it cause I feared for the guy he was in the ring with or going after all the time. And what a big deal it was if someone knocked him off his feet. And jesus did they ever **** up with Big Show's career. You think we would have ever seen Andre crying in the ring?

The whole Randy Savage WMIV experience was 4 out of 4 stars for me. Not cause any of the matches were great quality, but because the story overall was great and kind of unexpected. I think everyone expected another Hogan win because that's all we ever knew till that point.

Anxiously awaiting Savage/Warrior WM match rating now.

Yeah I'll have to actually rewatch Savage/Warrior before I settle on a rating since off the top of my head I'm not sure what I would give it, but to give a general idea: I love that match. I can be drawn in by a great story, great psychology, great atmosphere, things like that, without question. I'm not the type of smark who requires a technical classic in order to hand out a good rating.

This whole conversation feels quite weird in that I was very much under the impression that I was giving highly positive marks to Savage's matches on the whole, and now it's as if I'm explaining why I'm being so critical or something.

I've seen so many different opinions on Savage/Warrior. Such a divided match. I've seen everything from totally sucks to ZOMG FIVE STARS YOU GUIZ!!! Personally, I love it.

I was just coming here to post about the Savage/Warrior match. The match was great, of course, the two had terrific chemistry I thought. But what stole the show was Savage/Liz embracing at the end of the match with Macho Man's music blasting in the background. Damn near started crying.

When WWE talks about GOAT Mania moments, I have no idea why they don't mention that one.

Because it's Savage and Warrior and both guys were on WWE's **** list for awhile.

And maybe because almost everyone involved in that match died young. Think Heenan is the only one with anything to do with it that's still alive. Not sure if Gorilla Jr. was the referee or not.