Hi all,

i am currently developing a mobile app meant for live players to give simple advice on what hands to raise unopened and what hands to raise or call while facing a single raise.

is this an app you would use in your live games? how much would you pay for this app? or supporting features such as post flop advice on how to play for example, A5s BU vs CO facing a CB on different flops?

all comments are appreciated.

i am sorry i dont know where to post this so i just placed this post in a few places hoping to get some eyeballs.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that using a mobile device in this way at a gaming establishment would be illegal in most if not all jurisdictions. It would also probably get you kicked out of or uninvited from underground or home games.

Moreover, it wouldn't be of a whole lot of value unless it can somehow account for your opponents' ranges, which is the most difficult and often one of the most important factors in preflop decisions.

So I'm in a casino, facing a cbet, not sure what to do, so I pull out my phone and start crunching numbers?

Pretty sure I don't know a place where that will ever be allowed.

hi jimulacrum,

yes it takes into account your opponent ranges. so we can assign something him like maybe a 10% or 15% or 25% range (which is automatically assigned for your convenience) and then we will know what to call or 3bet assuming the other stats are standard.

i am concerned about the part on using this app in casinos. are players allowed to use their mobile phones in casinos? is it a common practice to use their mobile phones? a quick google search shows that while mobile phones are not allowed, players are usually not stopped from playing. is this true?

hi bladesman87,

you have just mentioned a flop situation. you are not required to crunch any numbers. that is what the app is supposed to do for you.

so this is how the advice would look.

we called A2s BU vs CO

advice
1. call flops with backdoor flush draw, flush draw, TP, with plan of betting turn/river (50% of the time)
2. bet when CO checks flop or turn (20-30% of the time)
3. call turn again if CO bets turn very often with the plan to bluffbet river unimproved.

and thats about it. of course this advice is sub optimal, but thats the best advice u can get in 5 seconds.

-------------------------

the calculations are as follows. opponent CB flop 65-70% and CB turn 50%. when opponent checks he check folds 70% and check/calls 25% and check raises 5% on both flop and turn. with our hand we have enough equity to float against flop and turn CB and win SD a fair amount of the time with A high, and usually when CO checks he is check folding, and A2s is ahead of his range often enough. and when we call flop and turn with A2s, we balance our calls with stronger hands like TP middle pair etc and can effectively add it to our river/turn bluffbet ranges (50% value 50% bluff). of course all these explanation is available if u go to the website but on the app its just 2-3 lines of execution information.

these calculations are based on millions of hands, information from videos from top pros like phil galfond, ben sulsku sean lefort, and information from matthew janda.

Check out NRS 465.075 for starters on the legal angle, specifically parts 3 and 4. Using what you're describing at a gaming table would be an unambiguous violation of both of those parts. Also scroll down to NRS 465.085, part 1, which is what you'd be doing by creating and distributing such software (assuming your app isn't blocked on grounds that it violates laws). Both of these offenses are class B felonies.

This is just Nevada; the rest of the homework is up to you. However, I can't imagine that many jurisdictions with legal gaming haven't considered this type of thing and legislated against it.

As to the use of the app, think about the fact that ranges are a necessary input. How many players do you know who can accurately calculate an opponent's range as a percent, but who also need help with something as common and straightforward as a preflop decision?

I don't like to outright shut people down, but between these two objections I'm raising, this is looking like an idea that won't work out so well.

In some casinos, players are not allowed to use mobile phones at the table at all. In many, they are allowed to use them to listen to music at any time, or to call, text, etc. (or actually to look at poker odds calculators) when they are not in a hand. It is not uncommon for players to use cellphone apps to calculate what their %'s and equities were in a hand, once it's over. However, legalities aside, I do not believe that any well-run casino would allow your app to be used (as you intend) by players while they were actually in a hand. You might get away with it for a while, but as soon as someone noticed, I think you'd have to stop.

There is a rule everywhere I've played (which is in several English casinos only) that says "no electronic devices at the table". This is usually enforced selectively, however. Usually a person who takes out a mobile phone to send a text or check the time is not going to be questioned (although again, I was once given a full round penalty in a tournament just for checking the time).

Yeah, I understand the app would give this kind of information for me. Something like a SnG Wizard app (but for cash too) I'm guessing.

This would be an interesting tool to have, but I certainly can't imagine any casino allowing players to use it. I wouldn't play in a home game where someone was allowing it either. You ought to be playing the game for yourself and not having something or someone else advise you.

It would be akin to allowing chess players to use chess apps at the table. Sure, it would help them massively, but nobody wants to be beaten by a computer in a live setting and it wouldn't be a fun game for anyone to sit and play iPhone vs. Galaxy all night.

Edit: I can definitely see it being a cool thing to have and run hands through in tournament breaks and stuff, but at the tables I think it would be banned. It would definitely be banned during a hand you were in.

No, it would not be useful in a live game. First, the room won't allow it. Next, it will be dangerous in the hands of someone who can't range properly. And without being about to even understand range, it will be useless. The average player doesn't think about range.

How do we know your app will turn us into winning players? You can't randomly show us a hand-chart without telling us why it works.
fyi someone already published a *free* preflop hand-chart app that they say is created on neural-network-GTO-billion-hands-number-crunching. Yours?

no one will be allowed to "crunch numbers" during a hand so the app would be pointless. If I was allowed to use a device during a hand I would be using flopzilla and pokerstove not a "what do I do preflop" app.

also there are too many variables preflop regarding many different things and if I needed to enter all that information, the other players will be calling clock every hand. pf is the easiest part of the poker hand and there is no cookie cutter/chart approach.

this is illegal

I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't allow anyone to use it at a game, and I think it's a ****ing stupid thing for you to make. If you want computers to play poker for you, why the **** are you playing the game at all? Go away and give your seat to someone who's actually interested in playing the game for what it is.

I would kindly ask the mods to close this thread. It can go nowhere but downhill from here and has already started sliding pretty fast.

I wouldn't use it, but I'd love to play against someone who is.

You should use the phone's camera to take a picture of the cards and action and then use text to speech to have the phone announce "raise to $69". It would be great if everyone at the table had the same app, you might be able to fit like 20 of the phones in the same space as 9 people. Turn the dealer into a robot too. Would really be a fun game.

Yeah and than eventully, they could do away with the table and chairs and you could use the app in the privacy of your own home without ever having to interact with people again.

Underrated post.

ummm..not really, its a horrible internet warrior type post. You want everyone to play 16/13 with 6% 3bets and 30% steals in a live low limit game?

I think you're vastly overestimating how good this app is going to be and how smart the people that are going to use it are.

I think it's a horrible idea and even at that, I fear I'm vastly overestimating how good it's going to be. It's just such a horrible idea that I cannot express how bad it truly is.