In the interest of becoming a good and ethical poker player. First big tourney I saw a misdeal to the floor of an opponent before I got any hole cards. Floorman declared it live and tossed it onto the table. As he did I saw it was an odd numbered black card either 5 or 7 of either spades or clubs.

I announced it because I don't want to be angling anyone. A few people got pissed and I decided to keep flashed hole cards to myself in the future. Do I need to reconsider that or what?

Idk why anyone would be pissed. Probably because they are impatient / had a good hand and didnt want a real deal. Obviously the guys hand you saw I am sure would be grateful because who wants to play face up. You did nothing wrong and the other people are just fools.

Are you saying that the dealer dealt the card off the table? That the Floor picked it up and gave it to the player and declared the card live?

People got pissed because they're ignorant / impatient, you should ALWAYS take responsibility and speak up if you see something out of line at the poker table. Seeing a flashed card is something you should speak up about if you care about the integrity of the game.

I'm confused about the floors decision to keep the card live. If I'm the floor, theres no way that card stays.

RROP says the card remains live.

As a player says that the he saw the card, it is just an exposed card and play moves on as that card becomes the burn card. If it was ruled a misdeal, that would be a mistake under RROP.

House rules, as always, prevail.

Not if it is dealt off the table.

No idea what the rules of live/dead are, but from a moral standpoint, I tend to speak up immediately if the problem is easily corrected (e.g., no action) or if the problem is recurring. If it appears to be a one-time problem which is not easily corrected, I let it slide until I have a more serious ethical problem (like I end up in a hand with the flasher). I've never had a problem yet, mostly because the incidence of this problem is P(flash)*VPIP(them)*VPIP(me).

If a dealer pitches a card off the table, it is exposed. It doesn't matter if someone claims to have seen it or not. From RROP under irregularities:

12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.

It is what happened. The floorman tossed the card onto the table(a very high toss I might add). When I said I'd seen it he said to redeal. Only 4-5 cards had been dealt at that point. Either way the response from the other players certainly will make me hesitate before announcing a flashed card in the future. I have a great respect for the game and do not want to diminish it's integrity.

The next tourney I was in I saw another exposed card (exposed by the player sitting to my left) I didn't feel right when I knew he hit 2nd pair on the flop and I had top pair so I tried to play as if I hadn't seen it. I folded to his reraise and realized the error in playing on with knowledge I had no right to.

I'll always mention exposed cards in the future and be careful with how I treat newer players on the felt. First impressions are harder to break and can seriously hurt the game.

Did you fold out of punishment to yourself for being what you consider to be unethical? Or were you beat when he raised you?

Where was this tournament? The first and most important part is that cards dealt off the table are treated as exposed cards, period. The floor should have placed the card face up on the table and instructed the dealer to replace it at the end of the deal.

Secondly, even if you let him give the card back to the player, when he flashed it he should have just treated it as an exposed card and not as a misdeal.

Either way, the Floor/casino sounds a bit shakey on standard rules.

Personally, if I see a dealer flashed card, I speak up.

In your second case, when it is a player exposed card, is a different subject.

I knew it was a move but had I not had that information I would have folded to his reraise. Not a "punishment" but just trying to maintain the integrity of the hand.

So I'm okay taking advantage of a player who exposes themselves? (I couldn't resist)

A player who exposes themselves usually has small ones, four and under.

I'm not that type of player but I know who is.

You are correct, my bad.

If I'm fairly sure I or someone else saw any part of another player's pitched card, I'll say, "That flashed." But dealers, being in a hurry, then ask me to identify the card, and I WILL NOT PLAY THAT GAME (the one where I say I saw it's the 7 and they tell me it's wrong because it was the 9). If they don't want to believe me, then the person can play on with me knowing something about one of their hole cards.

Obviously it's not hard to construct a situation where knowing "odd numbered black card between 5 and 9" is a huge advantage. Conversely, it's impossible to construct a situation where I can get a replacement for my opponent's ace that wasn't exposed (unless I'm just picking cards by dumb luck and happen to get an ace). Therefore, dealers and staff should always err on the side of believing the player who saw the card unless there's clear time-wasting going on.

Nowadays, though, I mostly just keep mum until I know I'm going to play the hand, because it's one of those cases where I've learned that speaking up just wastes even more time as the floor asks you to identify the card. Of course once I know that, it's too late to speak up about a pitched card, so I don't worry about it unless I'm pretty sure the precise rank and/or suit.

I appreciate the counter argument here. I look at it and on the one hand I want to play as clean a game as I can. On the other hand I don't want to get players/dealers/floormen upset for breaking the flow of the game for doing something that ultimately doesn't help me directly.

Nicholas--

I think you have to speak up. In this situation you have information you're not entitled to, and it's unfair to other players (not just the guy whose card flashed) if you play on as if you don't.

FWIW you will indeed get grief from players and staff if you speak up. I generally avoid doing things that make people upset at the poker table, but I still speak up about this every time.

All my best,

--Nate

here are a lot of written rules when you play live poker and by the same token there are many unwritten rules. Unwritten rules fall under the category of “etiquette”, or good manners if you like. Mostly these rules are just good common sense and it is not difficult to figure out what is and what isn’t good manners or acceptable. This does not mean to say that infractions of these rules doesn’t take place, it certainly does.

May I ask, what do you do if you see a black paint card, and the floor states that you have to identify it precisely or he won't believe it flashed? Of course the guy with the card is in no hurry to give it back, and of course no one at the table shows any inclination to care, much less back you up on the rules question.

I understand the argument for an obligation to point it out, but after many many occasions of realizing no one else at the table cares, I've stopped caring either. That's if I just glimpsed a color, spot or paint card, etc. If I can identify the card, I'll speak up (but still not tell them what it is; that's a silly question to ask when a card flashes for reasons discussed above, unless you're clearly abusing it).

I try to delicately make it clear that even knowing it's black paint ought to be sufficient for considering it to have flashed. When this doesn't work, I have been known to abandon delicacy.

If you're playing deep, he ought to be in a hurry to give it back!

Lots of sharp players who know poker will back you up and care.

I understand that it starts to feel frustrating to make a point out of this, but on some issues there really isn't room for compromise. Eventually there will come a time when you have a big advantage in a pot against him because of this information you don't deserve. There will also be plenty of situations when you have, or the guy next to you has, a big advantage against some third party who couldn't see the card flash. That shouldn't happen.

FWIW, I've discussed this at some length on 2+2 several times, and I think this is the consensus view among the most experienced staff and players.

All my best,

--Nate

I read as far as this, then had a good laugh. I guess we're just in totally different environments (and no, not everyone focuses on big-bet games).

Enjoy the games with the sharp players. I'd rather be at the table of people screwing around who think I'm a nit to point stuff out. And the fact that I'd be arguing about this multiple times a session, with no one at the table backing me up, including the people most affected by it, absolves me of my ethical obligation to keep making a point out of it.

I'd like to see them keep bringing this up in the games I play in.

One more case I forgot about. Suppose you're sitting on one end of the table and a pitched card clearly flutters so that someone on the other side could have seen it, but apparently no one was paying attention. Do you speak up?