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Does simply saying a number count as what you have to bet? Does simply saying a number count as what you have to bet?

11-17-2013 , 04:54 PM
Sorry for the weird title for this topic, wasn't sure how best to word it to capture the question.

Was playing in my local £1/£2 cash game last night, Saturday night, filled with drunks, fish - all you could wish for.

One of said drunk fish had just sat down and was playing like £500. He had played like 10 hands and was very chatty and looking for a social game of poker and a bit of a laugh.

In one of the hands he was in it was checked to him on the button, and he said "Thousand?", at which point the dealer said he was all in.

Is the dealer right in that decision?
11-17-2013 , 04:57 PM
Verbal statements are binding, yes.

However the dealer should clarify if there's any doubt he intended to bet. If the guy said "thousand?" as if he was asking a question, it would be proper to stop the action and clarify what the player is talking about. Especially as it makes no sense for him to bet that amount since he doesn't even have that much.

In this case holding him to a bet seems like one of the technically correct but otherwise wrong decisions made by staff who know the rules but not the reasons behind them.
11-17-2013 , 05:31 PM
In a lot of rooms, verbal is binding, but a number is usually accompanied by "raise" or forward movement of chips. In this instance, I don't think it's binding because the player doesn't have "thousand." It can't be binding if it's not possible.

Did the player do anything when he said "thousand"? Pick up chips, etc.

If this is binding and someone calls and player wins, is the person who called required to pay $1,000? If only
11-17-2013 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
In a lot of rooms, verbal is binding, but a number is usually accompanied by "raise" or forward movement of chips. In this instance, I don't think it's binding because the player doesn't have "thousand." It can't be binding if it's not possible.

Did the player do anything when he said "thousand"? Pick up chips, etc.

If this is binding and someone calls and player wins, is the person who called required to pay $1,000? If only
He said it while looking at his chips.

The dealer did force the guy to go all in, and when he started getting frustrated at the decision the dealer told him he wasn't allowed to play any more for being rude to the dealer.
11-17-2013 , 06:04 PM
Moved to correct forum.

House rules apply. The rules are often, "verbal declarations are binding when the action is on you." If this was a one time occurrence, many dealers would clarify first by saying, "I thought you said 1000, are you going all in?" However, a guy looking for a "bit of a laugh" has probably been a pain in the ass to the dealer, slowing down the game and causing a lot of confusion for the other players. My response to the obvious, "I was just kidding, having some fun," would be, "Then losing the 500 pounds doesn't matter, does it?"
11-17-2013 , 09:42 PM
What venice said. Generally, this should be clarified. Like if the guy to his right said something and the dude hears "thousand" and was questioning whether the guy on his right just bet a thousand, I'd be very hard pressed to hold him to verbalizing the word "thousand."

But if he's joking around, I'm 50/50 between telling him that's like saying "bomb" at a TSA checkpoint (but letting it slide) and holding him to the bet.
11-17-2013 , 10:00 PM
You can take the reasoning behind this to some pretty silly extremes -- a lot of people at LLSNL will say "25 million" or "25 thousand" as a joke and throw out a green $25 chip

The inverse also presents concerns; who hasn't heard someone say something like "bet a buck-oh-five" before they slide out $105?

The situation in the OP is a little weirder because 1k is a plausible amount for the game (even if he wasn't actually sitting that deep), but yeah
11-18-2013 , 06:39 AM
House rules apply, of course, but verbal actions are binding almost everywhere. As long as the action was on him, and he said something which was clear and constituted a legal bet (and verbalizing an amount greater than your stack is an allin), it could easily be ruled as a binding allin bet. ("Thousand?" makes no sense in this context as a question, even if said with an upward inflection.)
Of course the player would argue that he was merely joking. But most players, dealers and floors (and poker rules) have a pretty low tolerance for "jokes" like this, and it's not uncommon for the joker to be held to his action. Expensive lesson, but usually no need to be repeated. "Jokes" like this are made at the joker's risk.
So I would not say that the dealer was wrong.
All that having been said, if the players are playing poker and not "Gotcha", it would not be uncommon or unreasonable to let this pass once, with an explanation and a warning, especially in a social, low limit game.
11-18-2013 , 05:08 PM
As presented, this is ridiculous. If anything, it sounds like he's trying to guess how much he has. His action should be clarified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Degenfish
The inverse also presents concerns; who hasn't heard someone say something like "bet a buck-oh-five" before they slide out $105?
Agree with your post, but AFAIK, "buck oh five" is $105. A hundred is commonly referred to as a "buck" in this context, and greens are "quarters".
11-18-2013 , 11:13 PM
What if someone says "One .......... hundred ......... THOUSAND"?

Setting up a black and white rule is a lesson in causing, not solving, problems.
11-20-2013 , 09:08 PM
IMO an objective intention test should be applied - what a reasonable observer would believe him to have meant. Dealer clarification is also useful.
11-25-2013 , 11:28 AM
If he doesn't have close to a thousand in chips, then what can be binding about him saying that out loud? Seems a bit of dealer clarification would be best here!
11-27-2013 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Degenfish
You can take the reasoning behind this to some pretty silly extremes -- a lot of people at LLSNL will say "25 million" or "25 thousand" as a joke and throw out a green $25 chip
I've never heard someone say 25 million or 25 thousand.

He should be all in. Verbal is binding and he stated 1000. He doesn't have 1000 so he should have to put all his chips in.
11-27-2013 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco
I've never heard someone say 25 million or 25 thousand.

He should be all in. Verbal is binding and he stated 1000. He doesn't have 1000 so he should have to put all his chips in.
you must be fun at parties
11-27-2013 , 10:38 PM
He might not be very fun at parties but IMO he's right.

My guess is the guy that "accidentally" said thousand is a player that was trying to shoot an angle with AA. The next idiot thinks it was a mistake so he calls light.
11-28-2013 , 07:55 PM
I don't understand some of the responses ITT. If someone verbally declares an amount higher than they have, they are all in.

Now an argument can be made that the dealer should clarify if it sounds like he is questioning his opponents stack size or something. But, if it is a statement, verbal is binding and he is all in.
11-28-2013 , 09:40 PM
I think intentions should be considered. For example when someone throws in a green chip and says 25 million it is quite obvious that they mean to bet $25.

Related story: A while ago at 1/2NL, me and a random villain saw a river and the pot was $200. I said "1" and I obviously meant to bet $100. He asked the dealer if verbal is binding and since I actually said "1", he thought the bet should stand as $2. The floor was called and she looked at the pot and said "it's pretty clear fun101 wanted to bet $100, the bet is $100". Villain tank folds and I muck. I was bluffing.
11-29-2013 , 05:01 AM
I think you guys would be surprised how differently games would run if we took a black & white literal interpretation of everything that went on.

For one thing, a large percentage of hands would be checked through the river, for how much people tap the table while thinking. They don't even realize they're doing it.

People say "check" to acknowledge someone else has checked. They ask numbers. Heck, they say numbers to cocktail waitresses when it's their turn to act. They say "all-in" when telling stories about another hand when it's their turn to act. Or they ask, "all-in?" when someone else has bet but is hiding the rest of the chips behind their hands. Or they're talking about something else entirely and saying numbers.

This ain't "gotcha". It's supposed to be a slow game. Absolutely nothing is lost by clarifying his intention. Trapping someone into a bet he didn't intend, or becoming an unwitting accomplice to his trying to trap you into "forcing" him to bet what he secretly wants, is bad for the game.

Think of how it looks to new players and outside observes, if nothing else. Think of the long term here.
12-02-2013 , 04:32 PM
I think the dealer should clarify what he meant, especially if he was looking at his chips. Hard to angle shoot when you aren't watching the other players. He might have just been talking to himself about something -- like how many chips he has or how much he can afford to lose. Who knows? Maybe he was being a jerk, but sounds as if he was just trying to have a good time and accidentally said something that got him in trouble.

(Granted if this happened multiple times or he was being a jerk, I get it, but from OP's description, pfapfap is correct -- dealer should clarify.)

      
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