I would like to propose that CAZ makes a modification to their string bet rule. I'm going to cross post this so I can be sure management reads it, so please vote in the poll if you play at CAZ, and offer your opinions in this thread.

Reasoning:

While it's important to have a string bet rule, the one in use at CAZ is almost solely used by angle shooters to prevent legitimate raises in kill pots. It always happens like this, it's a kill, the raiser does not realize it's a kill and puts out a correct raise for a standard pot, but the killer or some other player who wants to use this as angle to see the flop cheaper flop immediately calls string.

There is no dispute the raiser wanted to raise, there is no angle by the raiser, so the string bet rule in this usage isn't accomplishing anything but making the games less pleasant and players angry. And it's not just tourists, everyone gets bit by this rule, even long time regulars, who get caught in a vicious circle feeling they need to angle other players to balance the playing field for all the times they got angled. And this violation happens 10 times a day in the games I play (20-40/40-80), it's super common and corrosive to the fun gambling atmosphere we'd like to cultivate.

Proposal:

I hereby propose that in killpots, and only in killpots, the string raise rule be amended so that if a player puts out a complete raise in a standard pot (i.e. they have the entire raise in their hand so it's unambiguous that they intended to raise), that it's an automatic raise and not a string bet, and that dealers just instruct the player to complete their raise.

Occasionally players will be forced to raise when it wasn't their intention, i.e. when they mis-estimate the number of chips to call a kill, but that is going to be very rare, as they would need to have the full amount of chips for the standard raise in hand for this to be called, and often when confused players cut chips out a few at a time. Likely 100 times more often it's going to save a player from being denied the raise he intended.

Please cast your vote and offer your comments.

Voted yes. I see this at 8-16 all.....the......time and it absolutely affects the play of the hand, and, yes, the kill poster is often the one to call it although others (who want to play the pot but are uncomfortable w/ the double stakes) call it also. At least you can rally the high stakes players and therefor stand a chance w/ management whereas us peons have no shot.

+1

I'm of the slim minority who feel it's possible to go with intent and not sacrifice the integrity of the game, however I appreciate why management isn't too keen in putting judgment in the hands of its dealers, especially in larger venues.

If a dealer can't tell that a player is unaware of the kill and can't do something to notify the player before the mistake happens, then the dealer needs to pay more attention. If this is a regular problem, then the dealers need to be instructed to be more clear on the kill pots. There are three good times to say it: (1) when pushing the pot: "That'll activate the kill, next hand 40/80;" (2) when dealing: "This is a kil pot, bets are 40/80 this hand;" (3) when starting preflop action: "Kill is on, action starts here, 40 to go." Yes, it's hand-holding, but clearly the players need it.

As to changing policy, I think it's difficult to do that, although I agree with your desire. I think a reasonable compromise is for rooms to adopt the WSOP's policy of progressive penalties. For any infraction, the first penalty is a warning. "Okay sir, you can raise, but next time you need to say raise or two-bet or it'll be a call. Yeah, we know, but that's the rules, and we try to keep it fair for everybody, thanks for understanding."

I'm not in management, so I don't know if that idea has any traction. But the first one is easy to do. Talk to management (in a friendly way), not the dealers. It might help to form it as a question: "I play here a lot and like it a great deal, but it seems this is a problem. Do you have ideas on what we can all do to help?" Nobody likes to be told by a customer how to do his or her job, no matter how well intentioned. The dealer who can handle it is the dealer who doesn't need it.

whats CAZ?

Time after time in my game the dealer clearly announces the kill is on but there are so many players that don't even know who raised when in the BB and there's only one other player in it's laughable. I'm in favor of the rule change bec it protects these players and makes the game more fair/friendly and less punishing for the types that don't pay attention which behavior I'd like them to continue.

Casino Arizona @ Indian Bend Rd.

I voted NO. People who want to use their advantage should have to pay attention to the game.

Howard, cherish what you have. Never let it go.

I wanna vote against whatever DC says.

I would be very much in favor of this rule. Had a hand last week where I open for 80, player to my immediate left stops the action and tells me it's a kill, I put out 40 more and BB calls a string bet an says they want to see the flop for 60.
I haven't open limped in like 2 years and its obvious what I was trying to do in this spot. Would love to see this change get made.

Then pay attention instead of playing WWF.

So if someone open raises UTG, and you open raise in the CO (which is now a call) you should get it back because you have never cold called in 2 years???

Mistakes happen. It's very easy to miss a kill when it's posted in the BB and nobody announces it's a kill, its only 2 extra chips afterall.
Whenever I post a kill and a player calls 80 by mistake, if there is no significant action behind I always offer them the chance to make it a full raise even though it would hurt me.

By all means lets repeatedly angle the players we want in the game the most, until they tire of it and never come back.

Let's see how good your games are when only the players who pay attention are left. BTW: Im one who does pay attention, I haven't had a string called on me in a long time.

Are these dealer-called or player-called string bets? (FWIW, I can see merit on either side of this contentious issue, so no sense in arguing it should go the other way.)

If it's player-called, one thing you can do as regulars is simply encourage others not to make a big deal about it, to let the player raise. Don't react until the bet is unambiguous. So many problems occur because something is "obvious" to someone. It doesn't matter what's obvious to you: if you want to avoid a problem, make sure it's obvious to everybody else (especially the bettor) before you react.

Few of the good playing regs will call this on their opponents, they understand it's an angle that hurts their games.

What is most frustrating is that casino employees who play in the games almost always call it, when I talk to them about it they say it's called on me, I have to call it in others to get even. They agree the rule should be changed, but can't quit angling others until it is.

I doubt anyone ever quit playing because someone didn't let them raise a kill pot that they weren't aware of.

They quit playing or play less when it's not fun, or they feel they were treated unfairly or cheated. imagine you are a casual poker player who comes in occassionally to drink and watch football, but the regs constantly call string bets on you in kills. Do you really think that doesn't affect your perception of fairness and enjoyment of the game?

If you believe otherwise I can't help you, but I'm pretty sure the CAZ poker room management understands this.

Not only are kill pots rare, but this type of player is limping QQ so he doesn't risk to much. This scenario rarely occurs and even then no one cares.

I see strings called every night. And not making a huge fuss about it doesn't mean the victim likes it.

You are defending the application of a rule that has no benefit in this situation, so as hard as you try to downplay it's cost, the question still arises, why keep this rigid rule in a situation where it has no value?

It's not that rare, I see it regularly. It's a bit different for me, though, because I play 8-16 these days. It's more often that a rec player has to be reminded it's a kill bec they've put in too few chips to call but sometimes someone misses a raise they intended to make. This discussion is fine by me but I know that my group could never lead the charge to make anything happen. If DC's circle gets the ball rolling I will try to rally some troops.

I always announce raise so it's never a problem for me.

I like this as a resolution to the issue.

Oral is always better... make your intentions known and this is never a problem.

And the gambler in me must ask... are these O8 games or LHE?

It's not up for debate that verbalizing is always better.

But this thread isn't about that, it's about how your favorite players arent professionals, don't verbalize enough and are getting angled by regs constantly because of that.

Why do you want the best fish to bleed chips to mediocre regs abusing rules to help drive them away?

Both, and mix games.

FWIW, when I see a not so regular player open a pot with 8 chips, I try to say, "are you calling or raising?" in a friendly tone before there has been action behind.

The 8/16 Omaha is a half kill, so it's 6 and 12 chips. Lot's of times an 8/16 hold 'em player will sit in Omaha waiting for their hold em seat. So when they see it's a kill and try to call, most of the times they'll put out 8 chips.

With this new rule, would that be an automatic raise since it would be a raise in a normal pot (8 chips)? 8 chips would be less than half a raise, so now you'll get people saying it's a string if they were trying to raise and didn't see it was a kill.

I'm sure the floor would love to get more haggling at the omaha tables. It takes forever to get a floor person over there now.

As proposed it would depend on whether they put all 8 chips out in a single motion or not, if they bring it out in two trips it's obviously a call, if they bring out 8 chips at once it's a raise.

But this is really the problem of having a single odd full kill game in a room full of half kill games. The problem is entirely resolved by having the same 8/16 kill size for both holdem and omaha games.