Quote:
Originally Posted by cap217
You know i like you and your other threads. Its obvious that you are a great player and even make money from staking (which is tough). But even at the start of your most recent thread i asked if playing w your horses is ever an issue. I also stated that i would eventually have a problem with it if i played in that game.
You are very open and honest but you need to look at it from other players and a casino perspective. Its hard to trust anyone in poker, period. The casino was a bit out of line and reaching for reasons (tax evasion, ha) but they have the right to keep the games safe and honest.
If i were you, i would have always kept it quiet. You said that people call your group the corporation? Well, thats a problem. I am surprised that players havent just sat out when this would happen.
I understand your point of view. But making a few guys unhappy compared to the rest of the room is an easy decision.
Can your horses still play w each other? Is it only you that cant sit?
I hate to say you told me so. One guy calls us "The Corporation" and he loves playing against us because if we don't all play the game doesn't run or it's just him and I HU which he is a bigger underdog in.
I can't sit with them, they can sit with each other as far as I know. I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't sit together though, although that would make even less sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman
Why don;t you understand that the fact that you get back part of your losses against certain players IMPACTS THE WAY YOU PLAY.
Hey you even admitted you play bigger pots in hands against your horses. So If i'm in a pot against yoyu and one of your horses I don't believe you are playing it the same way you would if your horse wasn't the third player.
You keep calling people ignorant, but you simply close your eyes to the reality.
Yes in a purely theoretical manner we can say it doesn't matter if you are staking these players as long as you all play with no regard for the staking agreement. The problem is that you and your horses are the only ones who think you are capable of actually doing that. The simple truth is you all are playing as a team even if you don't set out to do it.
So let me ask you. Do you stake players because you think they are fish? I'm guessing you don't. So why do you want to play in games with the players who are good enough for you to stake? Shouldn't you each be looking for fish to play against? The fact that you want to be in the game with your horses tells us the truth.
You don;t want a confrontation ... well don't come here and complain that the poker room has asked you to stop cheating.
It doesn't impact the way I play. I know this because I'm the one playing. I have played millions and millions of hands online and I have played plenty live. I have gone through mental game coaching to fix tilt leaks and I've trained to know when my play is altered.
I play bigger pots vs my horses because they play back at me bc I play LAG. It's easier to get in bigger pots with people who play back at you light.
I did call what some people said ignorant because they're just spewing out random assumptions without knowing anything like you just did. How do you know how I play? How do you know my game is influenced? How do you know I don't just play unexploitably? You don't even know what casino I play in. You don't know anything and you just call me a cheater without ever seeing me play or knowing who I am.
Btw, as I explained before, I like to play at their table so I can spot leaks. In live poker you have so much more information (tells, gameflow, ect) that just seeing a HH isn't enough. I talk about this way before this issue arose in my PG&C thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasha
by everyone I meant the regs in the game. They can police the game and make sure nothing bad is going on. Most of them understand how staking works, and realize that the horse does not bnefit from your wins.
Most recreational players don"t understand, and think its same bankroll.
Ty sasha. I wasn't trying to insult anyone in this thread, but this is the type of person I wanted advice from (someone who stakes/wins/ect), along with someone like AnusThermopyle who I know will give me a very accurate description of the floors role. I will certainly handle things like this in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrange
Let's set aside the questions of how the OP and his staff profit at the table and consider how it looks from an outsider's perspective.
Say I am the floor and I see OP and his horses systemically sitting in the same games, having on-going conversations with improved performaces when they play together. Floor talks to his/her dealers who confirm his observations. No one can point to "beyond a doubt" collusion but the inferences are not that hard to draw - the patterns are plainly obvious, there could easily be a problem but the floor hasn't caught anyone red handed.
Let's say I am a competent regular low stakes player, good enough to do a little better than break even. Any time OP + horses sit at the table, I see the game get tougher, horse plays better and OP coaches horse on how to beat me. In the best light, such a regular might take the original posters word for it that no one is cheating him but it would be really easy to a regular to draw a diffferent, less generious conclusion.
Let's say I am a tourist who is playing a losing game and looking to have a good time. Mostly the tourist is clueless but if he notices OP + horses it is going to look like someone cheating him. To a tourist, the distiction between cheating, softplaying and crossbooked coaching isn't obvious and if the tourist is losing faster than hoped then it will be easy to conclude that the game is crooked.
For what it is worth, I'd be racked up and headed down the street if I ran into OP + horses as soon as I figured out what is going on. Even if the game is honest, it is going to be tough. And the truth is I have no way to know the game is honest while having some reason to think there is a problem.
This is a situation where appearances matter. No one on the outside knows if OP + horses are cheating or not. There is solid evidence that something is going on, it looks quesetionable to both the house and some of the other players. I think OP was lucky not to get 86ed (and not just from one room but systemically) Further, I hope OP didn't get started with gaming because there is some chance gaming will decide OP + horses are cheating and make an unfortunate situation worse.
I guess the thing that I find most remarkable is OP doesn't seem to be able to see this from the point of view of the other players and house. We know he has this skill down pat playing the hands since its a fundamental part of playing winning poker.
Several earlier posts offered the same suggestion I will - lower your profile, keep your business more private and pray this doesn't get worse.
DrStrange
I do understand that perspective, and you explained it very well. I just don't feel right being shady about everything. I'm very logical, and it's just hard for me to come to terms with the fact that this goes on allllll the time with other players who are shady about it, and people don't care. But when someone tries to be honest about what they're doing they're villainous for it. It is what it is though. Clearly no use in trying to explain things, just have to adapt.