Your situation is cherry picked. What about on the same board, you have AK and they squeeze you out of the pot. They don't even have to check it down. They can bet at it as they normally would. Now, you say this would never happen because you all have impeccable integrity. Trying to convince everyone at the table that you guys would NEVER alter your play AT ALL is pretty much impossible, even if you guys could pull off the miraculous job of not changing your play because of the bankroll situation.

In theory, you're right man. If you can somehow genuinely guarantee that every player in the group will play EXACTLY how they would play on their own dollar, then it works. "Mathematically on paper" it works and you're right. Even if I "know" that you guys are playing legit, I'm still not going to feel very good about it and I'm likely not to want to play there. Now take into consideration not only the "just trust me, we're legit" factor but also the point that I think Steam Raise brought up earlier. You guys may be trying to not let the agreements affect your play, but you may not even know that you're unconsciously changing anything.


Pardon if any of my thoughts aren't 100% fluent. I'm tired.

Bingo.

You just see it differently. You are seeing differently than everyone on a poker enthusiast forum, which should be a red flag.

Private businesses are gonna protect their business before they allow you to fleece the game and run everyone out.

You should not be playing at the same table as someone you are staking. It's important to avoid not only any impropriety but also any appearance of same (this point should be stressed). If you do, you must inform the entire table and have one player withdraw (the horse, ldo) if anyone objects. I suppose you must also theoretically inform any and all new players as they join.

No, the situation is the same. I either make a fold or I get the money in. When I get the money in I either win or lose. When I win, I have better odds on my money because someone was trying to cheat and dumped money into the pot with no equity or with a hand they shouldn't have. When I lose I lose the same amount as I would have had there been one opponent or ten.

The dilemma is, fish will see this as a problem because they would use anything to justify a loss whether it be me or a dealer for dealing unlucky cards. So if everything is in the open it's apparently a mess.

On the contrary, if I'm shady with everything this is really suspicious to all the more savvy players, and makes me look like I'm hiding something because I'm doing something against the rules.

It doesn't matter what actually happens when you're in a hand with your horse, it's what it appears that matters.

The fact that you need to explain to people how you do not have incentive to soft play should tell you that everyone think there is incentive.

Plus how do you explain the fact that you get 1/3 of your loss back from your horse? That's black and white collusion right there.

Perception is really important to the feeling that one is playing in a fair game. That's why they have the English only at the table rule. i 'd guess that over 90% of the time two people speak in a foreign language, they are just doing the same mindless poker table chat that everyone else does, and they do it in their native language because it's much easier to do.

But they cant do it because people who cant understand it are concerned that they are somehow colluding or cheating. They probably arent, but this way people will feel comfortable the game is fair.

Now consider OPs situation. People see people playing together who say they are sharing a bankroll, and one is coaching the other, but they are supposed to just accept their word that they are playing up and up and there is nothing to worry about? Even if true, there is no way for the other players to really know that. Just like they cant really know what's said in a foreign language.

So since your situation could be used unfairly, even its appearance at the table should be prohibited to maintain the appearance of a fair game.

I don't get 1/3 of my loss back. So sick of explaining this. From now on I'm looking at peoples post history and if you're posting in micros then I'm just going to ignore you because that's likely the majority of people asking questions here, which I know I'm in B&M and I should expect that, but it's getting old.

Me losing money is irrelevant. I get 1/3 of a PROFIT split. If I lose $100 and my horse nets -$20 on the day I get nothing. If I lose $100, and my horse wins $12,000, I get $4,000. I have no incentive to lose money. I want to win. I don't win extra money by losing.

Much more importantly, and also previously explained, is that no matter what our staking deal is doesn't matter. I promise if we're both in the hand and you lose $100, we don't find a way to make you lose $110.
The logic many people on the other side are using is the same as saying it's unethical for a player to buy in for huge amounts because you can "bully the table" when in reality they can only lose the money in front of them.

I thought the people who said similar things before made valid points, but this is far and away the best post made in this thread.

So I guess my real gripe is that it sucks that you have to keep things hidden and behind the scenes/shady - which I'm not comfortable doing but is a necessary evil so people don't perceive what isn't there.

It's just a terrible message to punish honesty and ignore cheating as long as it's kept fairly hidden, but clearly that isn't something I can change in a game based on suspicion and deception.

LOL, you might not get exactly 1/3 back, but you are still likely getting a rebate because of profit sharing.

How hard is it to understand that?

I get absolutely nothing back when I lose to a player. You have x% chance getting part of your loss back.

And funny now you're resorting to insult.

Look, let me break it down so you might understand.

I lose $100 to player A, me = -$100.

You lose $100 to horse A and he's a winning player, eventually you will recover part of that loss through profit sharing.

Didn't mean to insult, just didn't want to have to explain this over and over to no avail.

I don't care if you get nothing back from players you lose to. Show me how my deal effects other people in the game.

Actually, better yet, just leave my thread please. Not trying to be a jerk, but I don't want a confrontation. I see what you're saying, I think you're wrong, you don't. Cool. I really don't want to hear what else you have to say on the matter.

Didn't know you obtain ownership of thread in these forums...

The argument is in whether you get a rebate from your loss to your horse, and I just explained to you pretty clearly that you will eventually get a piece back if your horse is a winning player.

Feel free to explain how you won't.

Maybe that's your problem here. You think everyone else is wrong except yourself.

Actually, pretty much everyone in the thread thinks that you are wrong, and they all have the right to tell you that since you made the thread specifically asking for people's opinion.

I think literally one poster said that who doesn't grind micros or click buttons at 10/20 like you do.

Not to imply that people who don't play higher or beat the games can't have their own opinion, but their logic is usually much different. Instead of determining what's fair, they try to justify why they aren't doing better or discredit what people with better results do. Not saying people in here are doing that, but it happens a lot.

Most posters in my target demographic have just commented that perception is reality or confirmed that the floor can do what they want. Not coming out and saying it is ok, but hinting that it isn't a problem but should be kept under wraps. I agree and wish I had done things otherwise.

Now you're resorting to ad hominem attacks?

We're responding to the question asked, and instead of discussing the content of our responses, you have seemingly moved on to argue "who" are posting these responses.

I guess you somehow think a "losing" player is more likely to side with the "sheep" aka those that cry wolf, than a "winning" player?

OP trolling his own thread.. now that's something.

btw if you think I click buttons, feel free to play me HU4ROLLZ live or online at anytime(I don't play lower than 5/10 though, sorry Mr. 1/3).. I'm quite happy to do that because we know you can't cheat by stacking the table with horses...

I stake few players in the room that I play in. When bigger games go and there is only one table we have no choice but to play at same table. However I only let one of my horses play at a time with me. I think it's ok to play with one of your horses as long as everyone knows about it, and there is only 1 game running. When you are playing a game when there is 10 tables + running there is no excuse for you to sit at same table as your horse.

In my experience, the more you win, the more you're likely to side with fish because you understand that without them, the game isn't worthwhile.

I also only play with one horse the vast majority of the time. The times I don't are when I'm encouraged to bring them all over to the table by a fish who likes to play against us and calls us "The Corporation." If anything bigger than 1/3 runs there is only ever one table.

You think it's better to tell people about it? I'm getting the sense that it's better to keep it a secret when playing against rec players at low stakes and better to announce in bigger games.

People who complained about me aren't necessarily people I play with. Like I said, I rarely play the 1/3 games, and I know all the people who play in the same 10/20 game I do are fine with it (and I'm fine with the other guy who does it). The floor pretty much told me that some people complained to them out of jealousy, not because I had beat them out of a lot of money. Like I said, people are just looking for a reason to complain about their losses or stroke their ego by claiming that winning players have to cheat because fish don't understand how to play.

You know i like you and your other threads. Its obvious that you are a great player and even make money from staking (which is tough). But even at the start of your most recent thread i asked if playing w your horses is ever an issue. I also stated that i would eventually have a problem with it if i played in that game.

You are very open and honest but you need to look at it from other players and a casino perspective. Its hard to trust anyone in poker, period. The casino was a bit out of line and reaching for reasons (tax evasion, ha) but they have the right to keep the games safe and honest.

If i were you, i would have always kept it quiet. You said that people call your group the corporation? Well, thats a problem. I am surprised that players havent just sat out when this would happen.

I understand your point of view. But making a few guys unhappy compared to the rest of the room is an easy decision.

Can your horses still play w each other? Is it only you that cant sit?

Why don;t you understand that the fact that you get back part of your losses against certain players IMPACTS THE WAY YOU PLAY.

Hey you even admitted you play bigger pots in hands against your horses. So If i'm in a pot against yoyu and one of your horses I don't believe you are playing it the same way you would if your horse wasn't the third player.

You keep calling people ignorant, but you simply close your eyes to the reality.

Yes in a purely theoretical manner we can say it doesn't matter if you are staking these players as long as you all play with no regard for the staking agreement. The problem is that you and your horses are the only ones who think you are capable of actually doing that. The simple truth is you all are playing as a team even if you don't set out to do it.

So let me ask you. Do you stake players because you think they are fish? I'm guessing you don't. So why do you want to play in games with the players who are good enough for you to stake? Shouldn't you each be looking for fish to play against? The fact that you want to be in the game with your horses tells us the truth.

You don;t want a confrontation ... well don't come here and complain that the poker room has asked you to stop cheating.

Let's set aside the questions of how the OP and his staff profit at the table and consider how it looks from an outsider's perspective.

Say I am the floor and I see OP and his horses systemically sitting in the same games, having on-going conversations with improved performaces when they play together. Floor talks to his/her dealers who confirm his observations. No one can point to "beyond a doubt" collusion but the inferences are not that hard to draw - the patterns are plainly obvious, there could easily be a problem but the floor hasn't caught anyone red handed.

Let's say I am a competent regular low stakes player, good enough to do a little better than break even. Any time OP + horses sit at the table, I see the game get tougher, horse plays better and OP coaches horse on how to beat me. In the best light, such a regular might take the original posters word for it that no one is cheating him but it would be really easy to a regular to draw a diffferent, less generious conclusion.

Let's say I am a tourist who is playing a losing game and looking to have a good time. Mostly the tourist is clueless but if he notices OP + horses it is going to look like someone cheating him. To a tourist, the distiction between cheating, softplaying and crossbooked coaching isn't obvious and if the tourist is losing faster than hoped then it will be easy to conclude that the game is crooked.

For what it is worth, I'd be racked up and headed down the street if I ran into OP + horses as soon as I figured out what is going on. Even if the game is honest, it is going to be tough. And the truth is I have no way to know the game is honest while having some reason to think there is a problem.

This is a situation where appearances matter. No one on the outside knows if OP + horses are cheating or not. There is solid evidence that something is going on, it looks quesetionable to both the house and some of the other players. I think OP was lucky not to get 86ed (and not just from one room but systemically) Further, I hope OP didn't get started with gaming because there is some chance gaming will decide OP + horses are cheating and make an unfortunate situation worse.

I guess the thing that I find most remarkable is OP doesn't seem to be able to see this from the point of view of the other players and house. We know he has this skill down pat playing the hands since its a fundamental part of playing winning poker.

Several earlier posts offered the same suggestion I will - lower your profile, keep your business more private and pray this doesn't get worse.

DrStrange

by everyone I meant the regs in the game. They can police the game and make sure nothing bad is going on. Most of them understand how staking works, and realize that the horse does not bnefit from your wins.
Most recreational players don"t understand, and think its same bankroll.

How is that ethical exactly??! So, you and your horses (all your money) play against one fish (his money), which means whatever profit you have comes from him. Would you continue playing with each other at a table if the players left were just you and your horses (or your horses only)? I don't think so, unless you just want to donate some rake to the casino.
So the fish doesn't get the situation and just wants to play some poker, he even enjoys it calling you "the corporation" and trying to beat you and he's probably thankful for setting up the game and bringing some players in.
gg OP.

Now the above scenario is obviously wrong (i'm a bit surprised that you just mention it like it's fine and all-unless it's a brag), but i'll take it as an exception, meaning it's usually just you and one or two (three?) of your horses at the same table.
So, as others have already mentioned, you should be more discreet about your staking deals. The thing is, you really can't prove that you are not colluding/soft playing/etc with your horses and that's all it matters. When other players or casino staff notice your staking deals, they will get suspicious and they simply won't like it whether they belive you're colluding or not.
After all, you know this situation is only profitable for you; the fish lose their money faster, the bad regs the same, the decent regs have more trouble winning the game so everyone else but your team is unhappy. for the same reasons the casino/room is unhappy and so it came to this.

disclaimer: OP feel free to disregard my opinion if you don't like it or you think it doesn't qualify because of my posts' history.