Sorry for the tl;dr. Cliffs at the bottom.

I stake a handful of guys at my local casino. When I can, I like to play at their table and correct any mistakes I see. I also think they're less likely to tilt when I'm at the table, but I mainly go for the coaching aspect.

We don't collude, we don't check it down or soft play each other. We don't give each other the money back when we play pots. There has never been a questionable hand where something suspicious happened, but we do very well in the room.

If it's relevant, I've been doing very well in the room for the last 3 years long before I started staking (past 6 months).

I came into the room this morning. My horse had been grinding 1/3, and I asked if he wanted to jump into the 1/3/6 with me. He accepts. We sit down, but before we're dealt a hand, the floor comes over and tells me I'm no longer allowed to play with him. After a short discussion, I go into the back room to talk to the room managers.

The poker room managers tell me that I can't play with an extensive list of people anymore. They made a list of all the people I'm not allowed to be at the same table as (they won't show me the list). I ask why, and they say it's because I exchanged money with the listed people (as in cash off the table) and that's not only collusion, but also illegal. They claim it is tax evasion among other illegal things that I can't remember. My opinion was they did it because they didn't want to hear fish complain and that's the only thing they could prove - that I lend people money.

I have lent or given 20+ people money. Some are big fish that I know are good for it, some are just degens who want $20 to for a cab and I give it to them, horses, and just some random nice guys who ask for a buy in to keep playing and pay me back within a week or two.

The floor goes on to explain that a few people complained and felt threatened that I was playing with a guy I was staking even though there is no collusion going on (and other people collude/soft play all the time). A continued explanation suggested that people said this because both myself and my horses do very well in the games and people are jealous because of all the ego involved in poker.

All the while I felt this was really abrupt and unfair. Later that night a floor guy was making a really standard ruling (oversized chip rule) and I could see him contemplating making a wrong ruling on purpose. He always makes snap rulings, and he tanked over something really simple, but eventually made the right decision.

Cliffs: Can't play with my horses anymore because a few players complained with no merit to their complaints other than "They don't like it." Floor makes a list of people I can no longer sit at the table with. This effects me because it makes it harder for me to coach my horses.

Is there a question somewhere?

Management controls seating. Sounds like they did a good job in this case.

Ya it would be, can they do this? It seems ridiculous and unfair to me. Fairly certain they're just making stuff up about passing money being against the law, but this just falls under "The floor can do whatever they want" I guess?

Of course they can do whatever they want. If they're not willing to accept your story, which I'd assume is, "I play against my horses exactly the same as I play against any other opponent," then your choice is to abide by their rules or vote with your feet by moving your team to another room.

Yes.


I have a tendency to discount the "reasons" given by any casino employee for what the casino does.

+1. I would think that either consciously or unconsciously you would play differently against your horses. Also, your horses would probably adjust their play as well. In fact, you have indicated that they tend to have less tilt, which is an example of them playing differently. Finally, I would not want to walk into a card room and get into a game where there were several players all playing out of the same bankroll, even if they all insisted that everything was fine and totally on the up-and-up.

Suppose you convince management that you play against said horses the same, and they rescind list. Doing so will offend and annoy the donk regs who complained, and make them likely to stop frequenting said place or stop playing when you sit down.

Since they are so bad they think you are colluding when it's more likely they just suck and are looking for excuses, they are the types of people you want to keep happy. And the room wants to keep them happy since they have a room to run.

It's annoying, but it likely has a net positive for all involved.

This is the best way for OP to look at it, take it as a positive thing and do your best. Can you still rail them and coach them in that way?

+1 to the basic sentiment that the room can do whatever they want and you have little choice but to accept it or play elsewhere. Also, they may not be completely straightforward with their reasons, but that's something you have to accept. When I kick people out of my room, I may or may not tell them the real reason I am doing so. It depends on the person, their infraction, our moods, and other things... just like any awkward social interaction among acquaintances.

Not only can they do it, but they sure as hell aren't doing it for no reason or because they feel like making stuff up to bust your chops. They have a specific reason here for doing what they're doing - they feel there's a conflict of interest in you playing at the same table as people you're exchanging money with.

YOU personally know you don't soft play. THEY don't know that. They need to keep recreational players happy, so they're killing any potential for problems arising by keeping you away from your horses.

They do know I don't soft play. They've never had a complaint about that.

Seems ridiculous they would want to keep a few fish happy who will eventually go broke and stop playing, instead of a guy who brings people into the room and puts in hours. Not only that, I feed every bigger game that runs, but at this point I guess I'm just complaining about it. Ty all for the insight.

The perception that there is no cheating going on is just as important as the fact that there isn't any cheating going on.

Sorry Kydd, I like your thread and I certainly believe you in regards to you not colluding/softplaying etc.

In all honesty I wouldn't feel comfortable if I was playing in this type of situation either. I see older guys softplay/check it down all the time but I know they are recreational guys having fun whom are incapable of colluding against me or anyone else.

In your spot, since you and your horses seem to be consistent winners in these games, it's a little different.

Management has every right to do this if they deem that it is affecting the experience of other customers, whether the other customers are right or wrong is not as important as you seem to make it out to be. If they cry collusion and head somewhere else, management is going to do something about that, or in this case try to prevent them from leaving.

It really is a crappy spot but I wouldn't of advertised or done public transactions had I been in your shoes. I've coached live and every time I talk to a student or discuss payment it will be completely in private, which would prevent this sort of thing.

Best of luck, hope you and the cardroom can come to a reasonable agreement.

It doesn;t matter that you don't soft play. Two players playing off the same bankroll don't need to soft play...... the problem is you donl;t nee dto soft play your horse your getting the money back anyway.


If I am in a hand against you and your horse the problem isn't that you and your horse will check it down if you are heads up. The problem is that neither one of you has to be concerned about losing to the other -- you are playing off the same bankroll and you can play against me differently because of it.

OP...
Why in the hell would you tell ANYONE that you are staking other players or allow your horses to tell ANYONE?
Are you bragging around the games that you are staking all these players? You are either very young, overly arrogant or just simply naive.
I am definitely not flaming, and I am glad you have enough business sense to profit from poker. However, you need to understand that relationships such as staking are much better when NO ONE knows about them.
These types of relationships happen in the business world too, and they are typically discreet for reasons such as the mess you have found yourself in.
I hope you handle your business better in the future.

I have had limited dealings with kydd but he seems like a stand up dude. I think it's even more likely he's doing something shady when nobody knows about.

Who's more likely to rob you the guy being open about what he does or the silent guy in the corner?

Kydd I assume it was dhcg that you were playing with at the time?

Kydd I assume it was dhcg that you were playing with at the time?[/QUOTE]

Thats what I was thinking. Horses talking to much. He's got a huge following on his thread.

I dont think its a big deal. Its insulting to kydd but besides that I understand the sentiment

Obviously its not tax evasion. I wouldve laughed in their face if that had been said to me ( and I wknder why people dont like me)

From a strictly fair/unfair perspective it is an injustice and tyranical. I also dont think he is violating any rules. Im going to give the gaming comission a call on the 2nd and see what they think and I will go over the regulations but Im not sure how much good that will do.

Kydd is upset and rightfully so but I dont think it will affect anything except for pride. **** I take it as a compliment lol.

And lol collusion. Thats funny

People with nothing to hide can talk as much as theyd like imo

That was my thinking. Everything was out in the open. It would make me more leery if I saw all this hush hush away from the table.

So, are you going to stop playing in that room?

If you and your horses are winners, you take money out of the game. Which, in the long term, is bad for the game. Hence bad for the casino.

Remove the sharks, and the fish don't go broke as fast. So they stay around a lot longer.


"Feed", as in "loose money in"?

This isn't even true. It's the same ignorance everyone else has though I suppose. If I lose to my horse, I could potentially get 1/3 of the money back if he has a winning session. If he loses to me, that money is gone, no different from any other player. If he has a losing session the money I lose to him is gone anyways. In no way does it effect my play. If I let it effect my play, it would be in HU situations and it would be unethical to do so, and why would I be unethical with someone who is making me money?

This is why I did it. People ask and I tell them. Not to mention I give rides or carpool with my horses, and we go to dinner and stuff on occasion. Of course people are going to realize we're friends.

So to the people who asked why I told people (or more like why I admitted to people when they asked) is because
1. I don't like to lie.
2. I have nothing to hide because I am doing nothing wrong.

I mean seriously, no decent player needs to cheat to beat LLSNL, and none of the guys I play higher with complain because it's so obvious there is no advantage gained on anyone's side.

Also, no, I was not playing with dhcg at the time. I stake a bunch of guys.

I actually have a solution to the problem, but I m not going to discuss it here. If that doesn't work I don't know what I'm going to do. The money is so easy where I play, and like dhcg said, it really won't effect me financially all that much.

I had one of my horses text me today saying he needed to do some review because he's on a downswing. I'm almost certain he won't be on my banned player list, so I could still play with him, but the fact that I have to be shady about it is really unsettling. I don't want to do that.

Kydd made it very clear when he first statted staking me that everything was done in the open and than we were to play everyhand at 100%. No taking it easy for anyone

Poker is not a team game.

Even if you don't realize it you and your horses might be playing differently against each other.

Even if you aren't, others at the table feel like they're playing against a team.

Even if it isn't collusion, which is difficult to argue that isn't because no one actually lose money when you or your horses are in a hand together, it is still bad business for management to see a "large" group of players that obvious know each other very well on the personal level to sit at the same game, and do nothing to hide the fact that they share money.

Your antics are pretty much forcing anyone with any common sense to want to do something.