There is a thread about Stud in the beginner forum RN and one of the comments mentioned a situation that I didn't know the answer to.


In Stud, if one player has AsKs open and the other AcKc on 4th street, who bets first, assuming a HU pot? Same question when the two players have the same open pair.

Does the spade bet first or does it go in dealer order.

I seem to recall that the suits do matter here but I am not certain. I know that they DO matter when determining the bring in and they DONT matter when determining a winner, but do they matter when determining who has the betting lead each street?

It should be the first AK.

It CAN be either depending on house rules. In tournaments it doesn't matter because seating is random but in a cash game high suit is a much better rule

It is done by suits on Stars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_c...des%20(highest).

At every casino I have played, the player to the left of the dealer goes first. However, I believe this is a terrible rule, and in fact the only unfair rule I have ever noticed in any casino poker game. By suit is a much better rule.

I'm struggling to see how this rule is in any way unfair. If Bob and Susan each have AKs, then

if we go by the dealer, Bob has a 50% chance of being first to act, as does Susan
if we go by suits, Bob has a 50% chance of being first to act,, as does Susan

Since the ranking of suits DOES NOT impact the ranking of poker hands (a royal flush in spades does not beat a royal flush in diamonds) there is a tie in determining the highest hand at the moment. So you need a tiebreaker. One way of breaking the tie is to use something that is unrelated to the strength of the poker hand (the dealer button); and another way of breaking the tie is to use something that is unrelated to the strength of the hand (suits).

I can't see why one would be better than the other. I really can't see how one could be considered terrible and unfair.

Because it's not random at all - if you are sitting in seat 8, to the right of the dealer, you will have position any time it happens that session. If you are sitting in seat 1, to the left of the dealer, you will be out of position any time that happens.

You mention a "dealer button", but I have never seen a stud game in a casino that uses a dealer button. We're saying the player to the left of the actual house dealer has to go first every time, that's why it is unfair.

So you are saying that the dealer position does not change with every deal. It has been a long time since I played stud in a casino (like maybe 40 years), so I have to admit that I am ignorant on this subject. If that is true, then I get your point, though I would guess that it doesn't come up very often. Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, they just deal to the left of themselves every time. I have played some mixed games where we passed around a dealer button in the stud rounds, mostly to keep track of the number of hands played, but in any straight stud game (or even the stud rounds of an Omaha 8 / Stud 8 mixed game) I've ever played in a casino, no button was used.

It doesn't come up all that often, but I'd say it seems to come up once in about every stud session I have ever played. When playing stud in a home game and actually rotating who is the dealer, the rule is fine.

Jesus this is a terrible practice. I know next to nothing about stud but this is patently unfair and biased.

Yep, that's why it's the only completely unfair rule I know of in poker. But, unfortunately, it is standard.

It's not standard. It truly varies from house to house. WSOP even recently changed from position to high card by suit (even in razz/hi lo regular).

Really? Great if it is changing, but I've never seen it being done by suit, and I have played stud in over 10 different public casinos. I've also played stud at the WSOP cash games, but not in the last few years. Any place else the rule has changed?

I believe Bellagio is going by suit and possibly Aria.

Nope, Bellagio does it by position.

This was actually a big discussion during the $1500 Razz event and different floors were giving different rulings. They def need to clarify this for next year. But in WSOP tournaments they do go by suit. High suit bets first, even in Razz which I thought was strange.


In Razz one board is As7h and the other is Ah7s. The ruling that day was As goes first.

Well that is odd; I had figured if they were using the suit rule, the low suit would go first in Razz. It doesn't really matter though, as long as it is consistent.

necrobumping....

Only if some players have more propensity to end up in the 8-seat than others. Technically it's biased against those who can't get to the table sooner when the game is called, in order to claim the higher-numbered seats. Maybe also against those can see the boards better from some seat or other, esp if stud is played at a non-stud elliptical table. I'm sure most places would let you lock up the 7 or 8 if there's a disability involved.

That said the suit rule is much better.

Lol I guess I never thought of it since it happens so rarely and it really doesn’t matter that much. And in tournaments with assigned seats it’s random and luck of the draw overall

I guess you can squeeze out every last bit of EV by choosing seat 8 in a cash game…

I think it’s a good rule actually because it doesn’t really matter that much and more straightforward

Yeah, I only played a fairly small amount of stud but the few times it's come up, I never heard anyone say, "Dammit! Next time I'm grabbing the 8 seat."

If you go by suits, theoretically there could be a case so fine-tuned that you'd play (Q2)K differently than (Q2)K (assuming same liveness of your suit in each case of course). This might come up if an opponent matches your door card, just so you can go last if you catch a 4th club of the same rank as that opponent. But that is really getting in the weeds and somewhat nerdy to even think about....

So I agree with those saying suits are a slightly better rule, and yet practically speaking in cash games no one probably gives a ****.

Just start with to left of dealer is by far the best rule. Just one street anyway as 5th virtually always changes it

Then you might as well have the first low card to the left of the dealer bring it in too, it's the same thing and simpler.

No

That’s in play much more often and big issue

That's the way I feel about the OP issue. The fact that it doesn't happen often doesn't make it more fair.

At this point we're just splitting hairs anyway but just philosophically speaking, I find it interesting that one widely held view of fair begins sometime after the original seating for a cash game.

In the tournament case it should be indisputable that either rule is "fair," assuming the seating draws were conducted honestly.