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Old 09-17-2018, 11:16 PM   #1
Howling
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Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

20/40 stud hi.

I played this hand vs. a very solid thinking player. He thinks roughly the same about me.

The hand doesn't involve necessarily hard decisions, but I thought it played relatively interestingly. As the stud forum tends to be quiet I thought I'd look to post a hand here or there. I'll post the hand street by street to see what people think, and after any discussion I'll post what I did and my reasoning behind it.

Again, not an amazing, crazy hand, but I did enjoy the thought process.

Playing 7 handed. Villain is low with the 2 He brings in in for $5, folded to me. Board was roughly clean of paint as I recall. A few medium/low cards out, but his door and my cards are clean.

6 and 2 behind me.

Hero holds (JA)J

I make it $20 and the 6 folds.

Over the last 20-30 minutes I have raised frequently in this spot. I'm not above stealing with any two hole cards given a high door card, but in fact I have had a run of high pairs or other quality raising hands, so I haven't needed to fold out any iffy stealing spots to randomize said steals. Villain is almost certain to be aware of my activity over this period.

I have not needed to show any of the hands over this brief stretch.

Villain makes it $40 to go. Villains range is very wide in this spot, but no pure garbage.

Pot ~$80

Hero?
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:43 PM   #2
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Id just reraise and play it as the best hand and if not with ace kicker not too far behind KK and QQ. You will most likely be OOP so think this is way best. But lots of pairs below jacks and flush draws in range too. If get raised on 5th he probably has a big pair>J in hole.

But I call BS on two thinking players at one live table lol
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:58 PM   #3
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
But I call BS on two thinking players at one live table lol
Thats what made it interesting ; )
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:00 AM   #4
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Thats what made it interesting ; )
Lol I hear ya man

Just to add to my prior comment you can hold back some pairs here even jacks to help balance other stuff

But with the ace kicker you have more equity in general thus fast play. Also repop hands like JJTs.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:08 AM   #5
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Totally fine to reraise and run it, but if villain is likely to bet streets UI you can potentially get a raise in on Fifth for more value. A hand like this you're happy to get one good raise in, because your opponent won't be going nuts with worse, and if you can do it for more money that's even better. If you reraise right away, villain will be able to play very well against your range, which doesn't matter that much if you think he'll still try to keep you honest with an underpair most of the time. Additionally, if you happen to be against a bigger pair under, you probably won't get 3-bet if you raise a later street because it will appear you have improved to beat one big pair, and conversely you'll know it if he makes two pair and can play accordingly.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:59 AM   #6
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

I prefer to flat call my entire continuing range here and get in a raise later - maybe you can catch some kind of a suited connector and misrepresent your hand...lots of fun things can happen
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:34 AM   #7
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Against a lot of players I would have re-raised third, but here I decided to just call the raise. My thought process was pretty much in line with what elec & rolled pointed out.

Also, I specifically want villain to believe I picked a turn card off getting stubborn with something like (89) J or even as bad as (4A) J rainbow.

Turn came (xx) 2 8
(J A) JK

If I bet villain will play on close to 100% of the time, raising an unknown amount. If I check my read is villain will bet a large majority of the time.

Plan for 4th?

Last edited by Howling; 09-18-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:55 PM   #8
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Think my strategy of playing fast with certain hands fits well with what electrical and Rolled Up are advocating. The times we improve with AJJ and JJTs our board may be scary enough where we will whiff on checkraises more often thus these are good hands to put in action immediately
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:58 PM   #9
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Overall I think a mixed strategy is best for this types of situations, for example when you just call you can have jacks, but sometimes when you reraise you dont
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:27 PM   #10
electrical
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

If you check the King a bet is going in every time without you losing any deception so I'd just check and let him bet. Fifth will be awkward a lot when he pairs or catches another so you should be happy to play Fourth for one bet.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:56 PM   #11
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

I call my entire range here on 3rd. 3 betting turns your hand face up if you are going to flat your steals
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:33 PM   #12
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I call my entire range here on 3rd. 3 betting turns your hand face up if you are going to flat your steals
what if you are 3 betting a nice blend of good jacks (or better) and draws? And then then also have jacks in your flat range too. Hand no longer face up in both cases but you get to reap your value on 3rd.

Regarding this hand, already a situation is developing with the two hearts where we might not want to be check-raising.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:13 PM   #13
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
our board may be scary enough where we will whiff on checkraises more often thus these are good hands to put in action immediately
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Originally Posted by electrical View Post
If you check the King a bet is going in every time without you losing any deception so I'd just check and let him bet. Fifth will be awkward a lot when he pairs or catches another so you should be happy to play Fourth for one bet.
These were the two scenarios I debated in the few split seconds I had to think about the hand. I was hoping that if I missed 4th street I caught a rag so I could check and represent nothing. If I hit a high card on 4th I wanted an Ace so I could lead and represent a guy representing aces.

But I caught a scary card generally speaking, and I was afraid that if I check-called 4th street I'd risk 5th getting checked through. If my opponent was weak looking for a free card on 5th, he'd have to continue on 4th. Given that I was likely to be high on 5th and am still way ahead of his range, I decided to check raise.

I check raised, and after a brief pause, he called. The pause did not look like he was considering a re-raise, but more like he realized he was no longer up against a possible garbage steal.

5th street
(xx) 2 8 T
(J A) J K 4
Pot ~$160

Plan for 5th as played?
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:05 AM   #14
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I call my entire range here on 3rd. 3 betting turns your hand face up if you are going to flat your steals
shouldn't you just mostly be folding your steals? (obviously not if it's a 3 straight or 3 flush)

like say you steal with 28A and a guy 2 bets. you're not peeling 4th most situations right?
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:55 AM   #15
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
I prefer to flat call my entire continuing range here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I call my entire range here on 3rd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
like say you steal with 28A and a guy 2 bets. you're not peeling 4th most situations right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howling View Post
Also, I specifically want villain to believe I picked a turn card off getting stubborn with something like (89) J or even as bad as (4A) J rainbow.
I'm assuming that when folk talk about playing on they aren't coming along on hands as bad as (28) A or (45) J. But I do want villain to assume I'm near the bottom of my range by calling.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:06 AM   #16
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

On 5th street I couldn't see a reason for leading. While it's possible villain was playing 4 hearts on the turn, the fact that he didn't three bet the turn made me take out almost all of his 4-flush possibilities.

I don't think a guy raising a three flush on third, hitting the draw on 4th, suddenly backs off on the turn after getting check raised. Certainly he doesn't hold the draw with the A anyway.

Nonetheless I have my opponent betting close to 100% on 5th street. He will bet all flushes and 4 flushes, and if he has a 4 flush & a pair he's favored anyway.

I check 5th and was somewhat startled to see my opponent check behind.

I think he made a fairly egregious mistake by not betting here regardless of his holding, unless he was planning on folding 5th, which seems unlikely given the money put in on 3rd & 4th.

Thoughts on villains check behind?
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:58 PM   #17
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Thanks for posting a hand Howling.

I am more in ascot I prefer to fast play here and reraise 3rd. You have a hand and are likely to be out of position so get the money now. I also have a wider 3 bet range here vs opponents that play back. One point not made yet is how often you expect villian to fold 5th when he bricks. The more often he does the more you frequently you should reraise and of course the wider your range should be. There are plenty of people Id reraise as low as jt7 here (liveliness is always a factor). It can be hard to get a read/history in full ring steal situations but playing too cautious is a mistake (and boring).

5th St: given your read your check is a probably a mistake and his checkback is probably good unless his pair outs are extrememly live. In general betting scare cards too liberally is a leak in wide range situations and you should definitely be taking advantage of those that do; c/r or c/c then donk.

Peace
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:01 PM   #18
zoogenhiem
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Haven't played too much live stud but only value hand I see villain checking back on 5th is a made flush hoping you'll catch up enough to pay it off -- not a good line IMO but one I wouldn't be surprised to see live.

I'm not sure I understand why a draw, even a strong A-hi draw, would want to 3bet on 4th street (btw I don't believe it standard to refer to 4th street as "the turn" -- that's normally reserved for 6th street, and 7th is "the river"). There seems to be minimal equity advantage to do so and you're never folding to the 3bet. Maybe it gets you to slow down on 5th street and let the drawing hand take a free card if he doesn't improve, but it also could cost him a bet if you check when he hits his 3rd heart.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:38 PM   #19
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Quote:
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On 5th street I couldn't see a reason for leading. While it's possible villain was playing 4 hearts on the turn, the fact that he didn't three bet the turn made me take out almost all of his 4-flush possibilities.

I don't think a guy raising a three flush on third, hitting the draw on 4th, suddenly backs off on the turn after getting check raised. Certainly he doesn't hold the draw with the A anyway.

Nonetheless I have my opponent betting close to 100% on 5th street. He will bet all flushes and 4 flushes, and if he has a 4 flush & a pair he's favored anyway.

I check 5th and was somewhat startled to see my opponent check behind.

I think he made a fairly egregious mistake by not betting here regardless of his holding, unless he was planning on folding 5th, which seems unlikely given the money put in on 3rd & 4th.

Thoughts on villains check behind?
I don't think I agree that the check-behind is an egregious mistake, given how the hand unfolded.

1. He puts you on a steal on third, given your description of the setting

2. His re-raise range is wide, given this. I suspect he re-raises with mid pocket pairs and up. Maybe even with less.

3. You smooth call, validating his thinking that you are on a steal and he is ahead.

4. Your check-raise on fourth tells him that you are not stealing, and could very well have jacks. His hesitation there tells me he considered folding, which he would never do with a four flush. He knows he is almost certainly behind, and is hanging around hoping to hit two pair. Or perhaps hitting another to complete his flush.

5. He knows that you are not folding to his open three flush, and with his hand being behind, he saves a bet by checking.

So with this sequence of events, I am not seeing why checking behind is such a mistake.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:32 PM   #20
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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So with this sequence of events, I am not seeing why checking behind is such a mistake.
I now take him completely off having hearts/heart draw. While it's possible he checked 4 hearts he backed into, I think he bets four hearts almost every time.

So now if he hits a non-A on 6th I'm going to check raise him.

If he bets 5th he takes down the pot with any heart.

We are starting to see the advantage of confusing an opponent.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:48 PM   #21
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
btw I don't believe it standard to refer to 4th street as "the turn
Lol, I've been playing waaaaayyyy too much hold em last few years. Nice to be playing some stud again.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:20 PM   #22
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

His check behind makes sense for the hand you have to put him on, an underpair to Jacks. If he has a under he has so much equity vs your check-Fifth range he is making a big mistake not betting, but if you don't think he would make a big mistake then his check-behind is good, apart from crippling his bluffs. After you c/r 4th he likely thinks you are interested in a showdown, so he's taking the least expensive line to get there.

The point about crippling his bluffs matters because his board is so uncoordinated apart from the s. Very different if his board is 98T which is so pretty you'll catch a bet from anybody with a pulse.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:47 PM   #23
Howling
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

Assuming the hearts are radomly clean, and I think they are, I don't remember the upcards of everyone else exactly, but it certainly wasn't 3/4 up of any given suit.

I just think 5th would be a good bet in and of itself. He's getting a call so he stands to win $200 for a $40 bet.

It's not really an 'egregious' check. I used that word to spark some discussion. But I think betting 5th has value for him even holding (55) in the hole.

As well, his check just made our hand much easier to play.

Last edited by Howling; 09-19-2018 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:57 PM   #24
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
what if you are 3 betting a nice blend of good jacks (or better) and draws? And then then also have jacks in your flat range too. Hand no longer face up in both cases but you get to reap your value on 3rd.

Regarding this hand, already a situation is developing with the two hearts where we might not want to be check-raising.
It still splits your range because youd only be betting the high equity stuff.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:59 PM   #25
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Re: Thinking through a hand: interesting decisions on every street (imho)

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
shouldn't you just mostly be folding your steals? (obviously not if it's a 3 straight or 3 flush)

like say you steal with 28A and a guy 2 bets. you're not peeling 4th most situations right?
It depends what his resteal range is. I usually dont open many hands that cant call one more bet.
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