Right. If you're gonna make it a rule that you can't take money off the table, shouldn't you also make it against the rules to shortstack? They both provide the same advantage(?).

Yeah except if a short stacker wins a hand, if he can't rathole, he's not that short any more, now he probably has 10BB and the most you can get in one and hand is 12bb and it's hard enough to get 10bb in. If you can rathole back to 5bb, then he ALWAYS has 5bb.

True.

Shortstacking in limit doesn't help a winning player win more, but it does help a losing player lose less.

Yeah I basically agree with that. If the fish loses less that means I win a little less, ok, I see how that's annoying. If I was playing for a living, maybe a lot annoying.

But like you said it attracts more fish as well.

If anyone wants to dwell on the EV of it, feel free. But you'd probably profit more in the time it takes you to figure that out than figuring it out would profit you.

Very zen of you! In most variants, attracting fish is a good thing, but in razz attracting ANYONE is a good thing, because if there are no games running then there is nowhere for the non-ratholing fish to play. Get more people to the tables imo, and if that means allowing ratholing (which could backfire I guess if it pisses off more people than it attracts), then I'm ok with it.

How is this even being argued?

ffs Stars, get your shot together. WTF is wrong with that site? I've never regretted leaving about 2 years ago, the reason? They were allowing disconnect abuse and multiaccounting/collusion in the stud games.

FTP is really "getting it" this last year or so and is IMO the players site.

So let me get this straight, not only do they have a really bad ante structure (iirc) that rewards uber nittyness, but they allow you to buy in for 5 BB's and rathole to your hearts content to keep it at that.

Sounds like a great game.

Quantify the extent to which this damages you. Hands tied behind your back to prevent waving, please.

I'm not smart enough to read into what you are saying but if it's as simple as I think it is, some issue with Stars frustrate me.

I take an interest in the game beyond my own immediate interests and I think some of this stuff has a negative impact on the game I love, want to see continue to grow, and be known for it's ethics and integrity.

That's really all it takes to turn people off sometimes, and stars should be willing to listen to such comments imo. Nofx may be a winning player and play high stakes (not sure, just a hunch), but the vast majority of players either flat out lose or grind microstakes while making less per hour than sweatshop employees. Why aren't they stitching up soccer balls instead? Because they like the game, they enjoy it, or get a rush from it even if they lose. So if certain policies piss off a lot of players, whether it truly hurts their bottom line or not, that is a problem for the site and the game as a whole. Just because I'm a beggar for more razz players, regardless of how sleazy they are, doesn't mean everyone has to be.

i saw this when it happened it was one of the fuzhou guys doing it. they dont speak english and do this all the time in stud and razz games. they also change seats every few hands. they sit with enough money that it really doesnt matter anyways and they always reload if they get short.