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Old 02-21-2019, 01:00 AM   #1
machi5
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Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

I have a question about a specific stud 8 third street situation: when a high card raises and I hold a small pair with another low card.

I've always folded in these spots, but as I study the game more and look at equities, it seems like 3-betting to isolate-- assuming the up cards are favorable to my hand-- is a profitable play. If I'm wrong, please tell me why. (I play 10/20 OE, but I know my Omaha game is stronger than my stud.)

A hand like KKTr is only 48% to scoop against a hand like 336r, which will scoop 35% and also make a low another 23%, so is a favorite to either chop or win. And that's not even considering the fold equity of when I catch good on 5th/6th (straight cards and/or an ace) when the kings don't improve.

Should I be 3-betting these hands, or am I missing something? BTW, I specifically picked 336r because it's obviously not as good as say 22A or 445 suited, yet still seems to be profitable. But I'm no expert, so please advise.
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:08 PM   #2
Munga30
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

You're on the right track but there are still situations where you would fold depending on all the factors. XxT completes first to act and you find 363r with 5A74(bi) out behind you in a smallish ante big rake live game, for example. I'd try to be very frank with myself about how likely I am to get hu with a 2bet.
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:22 PM   #3
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

Yeah, and there's also another dynamic that's unique to this game in that 3rd street is played with $5/$10 blinds instead of antes and a bring-in, so the action/position on 3rd works just like preflop in Omaha or hold em.
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Old 02-22-2019, 12:41 AM   #4
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

Without considering your unique structure it is too loose to isolate yourself with 336o against a player who usually has the high pair he is representing. Throwing out chops he is around a 3 to 2 favorite to scoop and this is a big advantage. Plus the bring in has 1/3 of a good hand showing and can fray meaning you have the worst hand both ways.


It's different to re-raise a loose player who may be stealing with something like (5s6c)6s. Or if you raise in late with a small pair low card it's not horrendous to be re-raised by a K but that's a different situation.


There's also quite a difference between 336o and 566s.

Regarding your unique structure the upcards behind you should give clues to the likelihood the king may be getting out of line. Are there middling cards in blinds?

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 02-22-2019 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 02:06 AM   #5
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
You're on the right track but there are still situations where you would fold depending on all the factors. XxT completes first to act and you find 363r with 5A74(bi) out behind you in a smallish ante big rake live game, for example. I'd try to be very frank with myself about how likely I am to get hu with a 2bet.
This is great advice imo.
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:50 AM   #6
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
You're on the right track but there are still situations where you would fold depending on all the factors. XxT completes first to act and you find 363r with 5A74(bi) out behind you in a smallish ante big rake live game, for example. I'd try to be very frank with myself about how likely I am to get hu with a 2bet.
I don't like the example as it suggests isolating yourself against a probable higher pair is somewhat the norm but it's really the exception with a hand as weak as 336o. The example above is a no brainer fold. A good player probably doesn't even have a hand as weak as TT there.

The ante must be high and the player should be loose and in a position where he thinks he can get away with a steal. In Stud8 the low card bring in changes steal dynamics greatly.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:26 PM   #7
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

I'll let munga, if they want, clarify but having a play like a 2 bet here in your game is thinking on a level that lots won't get to imo. And can balance a ton of stuff later if the hand gets to show down and the other players are good/paying attention.
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Old 02-22-2019, 11:20 PM   #8
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

It depends almost entirely on the board and your potential to ISO. It's not a hand you want to be multiway with because you will have the worst hand for both halves of the pot.
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:01 AM   #9
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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I'll let munga, if they want, clarify but having a play like a 2 bet here in your game is thinking on a level that lots won't get to imo. And can balance a ton of stuff later if the hand gets to show down and the other players are good/paying attention.
I mean if I have KKTr I would love the 336o iso me. If the third player comes in, a lot of times it's the bring in with three low cards. I don't want him in but he hurts the 336 more having the worst hand both ways.


Some aspects of Stud 8 play very straightforwardly, a K completing from EP is largely weighted to KK and iso this hand is a losing play imo. That is what OP seemed to be suggesting he would do and I think munga to a degree reinforced that because he gave an example where we would obviously fold but other than that it seemed like we should do it.


I think it's very situational
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:01 PM   #10
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

I think we are all pretty close on this. On the right track that he shouldn't instafold and that can we get hu is the next consideration and take the whole situation into account. Scotch, I think you've said nothing about the playability of 363 hu against the xxT, so in that sense you've undersold it a bit. But that's a quibble more than anything.
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:36 PM   #11
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
I think we are all pretty close on this. On the right track that he shouldn't instafold and that can we get hu is the next consideration and take the whole situation into account. Scotch, I think you've said nothing about the playability of 363 hu against the xxT, so in that sense you've undersold it a bit. But that's a quibble more than anything.

Am I holding the xxT? If so I have (AA)T or (TT)T. I'll see that 336o at showdown around 98% of the time. No real playability things to discuss in that situation. And getting it HU in first place is a big if in itself.

But we can talk about general playability issues for other situations. The biggest one for small pair/low card is catching an ace or a super scary low board and the fold equity that may ensue from that. However, we have realization issues of our own. For example by 5th we pretty much have to have two pair or a pair with a low to continue on which lops off a big chunk of our realization.


Maybe we are close but I'm not sure based upon what's been said so far. 336o vs a K is very marginal. Way better to reserve it for stuff like 5s6s6h vs a jack or maybe even a queen. Some high card bricks will give us overcard outs where we are correct to continue and realize our equity.
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Old 03-02-2019, 07:56 AM   #12
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
You're on the right track but there are still situations where you would fold depending on all the factors. XxT completes first to act and you find 363r with 5A74(bi) out behind you in a smallish ante big rake live game, for example. I'd try to be very frank with myself about how likely I am to get hu with a 2bet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Without considering your unique structure it is too loose to isolate yourself with 336o against a player who usually has the high pair he is representing. Throwing out chops he is around a 3 to 2 favorite to scoop and this is a big advantage. Plus the bring in has 1/3 of a good hand showing and can fray meaning you have the worst hand both ways.


It's different to re-raise a loose player who may be stealing with something like (5s6c)6s. Or if you raise in late with a small pair low card it's not horrendous to be re-raised by a K but that's a different situation.


There's also quite a difference between 336o and 566s.

Regarding your unique structure the upcards behind you should give clues to the likelihood the king may be getting out of line. Are there middling cards in blinds?
Yep, dead cards should be the key factor. With a K in the door of the villain, hero is going to give it up on 4th a lot when hero catches bad.
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:07 AM   #13
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

Thanks for all the input on this. As a follow up, would the same situation (an open raise by a high card) be a 3-bet if our hand was a small pair with an ace? Again, I'm assuming in this example that a) there are no callers in between and b) the board is favorable to our hand.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:21 PM   #14
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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Originally Posted by machi5 View Post
Thanks for all the input on this. As a follow up, would the same situation (an open raise by a high card) be a 3-bet if our hand was a small pair with an ace? Again, I'm assuming in this example that a) there are no callers in between and b) the board is favorable to our hand.
Much stronger hand so that would be a 3bet much more often. Itís a good play even in Stud High where you donít have low equity
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:15 PM   #15
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Re: Stud 8: small pair/low card vs. high pair

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Originally Posted by machi5 View Post
Thanks for all the input on this. As a follow up, would the same situation (an open raise by a high card) be a 3-bet if our hand was a small pair with an ace? Again, I'm assuming in this example that a) there are no callers in between and b) the board is favorable to our hand.
Also a minor note, the lower the villain's high card to better it is for you. If their door card is a K your have 1 over card kicker, hitting a brick J/Q for you doesn't add equity, however if their door card is a Ten, hitting a J/Q/K improves your hand/equity. The lower their door card the more high card bricks can help your hand against them.
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