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Old 02-22-2018, 08:03 PM   #1
NedSchneebly
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Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

6 handed Stud8

I bring-in (A7)6, 3 people fold (no Aces dead), Q completes, K re-raises, I have (A7)6.

Call or re-raise?

I called thinking that Q would tag along and I can get some of half of his action when I complete the low. On the other hand I have an Ace and am more likely to scoop by re-raising and probably folding out the Q. I would almost always call with any three low here without an ace. Thoughts?
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:54 PM   #2
Munga30
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

I think you should be reraising a lot because that dead money is pretty sweet. But I guess mixing it up is ok too. Since you'll be even more likely to reraise A2-A5, calling A7 and A8 could be fine to keep some aces in that flatting range that will be a lot of uncoordinated lows.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:54 PM   #3
NedSchneebly
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Yea. The Queen opener was a fish too so I wanted him in the pot because I felt that he would play decently poor post. In hindsight I think re-raising is best though. I'm getting potentially only an extra half of a small bet by keeping him in and reducing my odds to scoop by a decent chunk.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:02 PM   #4
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

If you're up against KKx and QQx you have an equity edge here. Even if the K has aces in the hole, you're still good to continue here. If the other 3 dead cards are high cards, you're definitely a favorite.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:27 AM   #5
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
Yea. The Queen opener was a fish too so I wanted him in the pot because I felt that he would play decently poor post. In hindsight I think re-raising is best though. I'm getting potentially only an extra half of a small bet by keeping him in and reducing my odds to scoop by a decent chunk.
Tough decision as there are obvious pros and cons

Why only an appointment xtra small bet by keeping him in? Never know what will happen down the road

Donít think either play is wrong but with as was already indicated I like a reraise
better with A2-A5 because slightly more chance to beat a pair of kings and you never know the K might have two low suits in hole
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:47 AM   #6
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

I meant to say that in a worst case scenario we "potentially" only an extra half of a small bet. In practice, the Q will usually peel 4th and fold most 5th streets, so in that case I generally win a full small bet when I hit my low and we chop w/ the K. I would normally expect the King to actually have a King only about 65-75% of the time but given my read of the player I felt it was slightly higher in this instance. He knows the fish with the Queen is sticky and will showdown lighter than most.

As the saying goes, the goal in split pot games is to try to scoop when you can, I feel like re-raising on third is best.
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:18 PM   #7
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

I prefer raise, I think it is good for our range and playability, best case scenario for hero is it gets capped and stays multiway (ignoring weird plays like call 3 fold to capp)

Given description of fishy player and (better) implied odds for you, you can easily justify flat if you think he folds to extra pressure and potential cap (though given description this does not seem like it should be a huge concern)

Last edited by monikrazy; 02-23-2018 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:24 AM   #8
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

do you really think dude's gonna call 2 more with qq's? just because he's bad doesn't mean he's completely retarded. i would think call would be completely standard. you're giving up a bunch of good odds to protect yourself against a very specific case of him making queens up and the kk's remaining ui. maybe would help to know the dead cards. like if your more live in either lows or pairs.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:29 PM   #9
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Why on earth would you 3! If the Q is bad he probably doesnt have queens and is going to fold and a lot of people would fold QQ too. Just flat everything you want to play here if you want to be balanced. If you don't care about balance raise rolled hands and aces only. Like 3! 3rd is so ridiculously bad.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:42 PM   #10
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Last two posts have been really fixated on whether or not the QQ will fold but no matter what happens we are fine with it. I think we prefer a fold but who knows unless they have done some intense modeling and assumptions would be up for debate and hard to pin down. Let the QQ sweat it out and do what he wants; its fun to watch.

Honestly I think if anyone thinks a 3 bet! is hideous here might have some leaks in their overall approach to split pot games. Increasing odds to scoop at very little or no extra cost means a lot. The fact that it makes you harder to play against in future hands is just gravy.

Fwiw I think this is close and probably would just call this but re-raise something like A45 where I would have more equity vs a pair of Kings should he have them and a good player will not have them all of the time as OP stated. But I don't think a 3bet is hideous.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:20 PM   #11
kisada
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

way prefer calling here. i find going up against two highs you are often offered chances later on in the hand to force one of them out, if need be.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:20 AM   #12
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Itís not that we want the QQ to fold, itís basically the same either way. We donít care what he does. Either we have 40% in a three way pot or around 48% headsup where we put in around 42%.

But if you reraise some three lows headed by an ace your hand wonít be face up if you only reraised with Aces or roll ups

You donít need to go crazy here as hands like (2A)2 should also clearly be in the reraise range
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:01 PM   #13
kisada
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

yeah i was under the impression we were talking about the ace being hidden

either way i agree balancing here via raises
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:49 PM   #14
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada View Post
yeah i was under the impression we were talking about the ace being hidden

either way i agree balancing here via raises
Oh the ace is hidden, we are the low card

Iíve posted a ton in this thread and my stance is officially I donít think it matters what you do as long as you donít fold lol
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:01 AM   #15
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Great spot to jam if the Q calls often, if he doesnt, consider calling to draw him in as you have great 3-way equity.

The key is to keep the pot three way and get the most money in, often this is on third street.
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Old 06-02-2018, 07:09 PM   #16
dire wolf
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

I’m no expert but would just call. What happens when u hit a ten on fourth street? Then another brick on 5th? Can’t assume you are free rolling here. Perhaps I’m the only person to start with three low cards in this type of situation and then go brick, brick,bricku
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Old 06-03-2018, 11:23 AM   #17
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

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Iím no expert but would just call. What happens when u hit a ten on fourth street? Then another brick on 5th? Canít assume you are free rolling here. Perhaps Iím the only person to start with three low cards in this type of situation and then go brick, brick,bricku
The last time I had an ace door card and caught some bricks was around 5-6 years ago, run better imo
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Old 06-04-2018, 01:06 AM   #18
kisada
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

definitely peeling 4th if i brick vs a Q and K. i occasionally peel 5th if is action just one bet to me and their boards aren't terribly scary, cards are live, and pot's bloated from 3rd/4th street action.
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:05 PM   #19
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

If you plug the hands in an online calculator such as on the cardplayer website you will notice that by folding out QQ (if he actually has QQ) your odds of the low still remains the same around 52% and your odds of scooping increase from 17.6% to 25.6%. My guess is that the extra 8% of scooping a heads up pot is not worth the added money from the QQ hand so calling the 3bet pre with A73 makes most sense.
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Old 11-06-2018, 12:44 AM   #20
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

i would try to keep the queens in by calling. almost nothing sweeter than two high hands going to war when i have a low.
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:49 AM   #21
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

fold pre you have nothing.
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:01 PM   #22
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah View Post
fold pre you have nothing.
it's the best hand

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
Qc Qd *23.61% 80,364192,0112211,94666
Kc Ks *36.13% 123,025301,7693511,62985
Ad 7h 6c40.27% 100,477106,17435318,729147

Just to add, why do we potentially want to knock out QQ? This is why

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
Qc Qd *35.20% 114,881301,088199,02474
Kc 3c 2c27.46% 93,789173,9211087,923226
Ad 7h 6c37.34% 104,952124,96817258,005278

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
Kc 3c 2c43.79% 165,627315,7694479,478175
Ad 7h 6c56.21% 240,175284,18744247,403175
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:15 AM   #23
PocketKings
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
You donít need to go crazy here as hands like (2A)2 should also clearly be in the reraise range
(2A)2 is barely ahead of KK equity wise (37.4% vs. 36.9%). Do you think we should reraise instead of calling with it?
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:52 AM   #24
Phat Mack
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

I don't know what the stakes are here, but it sounds as though if the Q will call one, he will probably call two. If he completed with QQ to test the K behind him, he is bailing anyway, but there are lots of other hands/scenarios he will continue with.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:06 PM   #25
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Simple Stud8 : Re-raise or call?

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Originally Posted by PocketKings View Post
(2A)2 is barely ahead of KK equity wise (37.4% vs. 36.9%). Do you think we should reraise instead of calling with it?
Yes, I do and think it is 100% best as part of standard 7CS high strategy.


Reasons include knocking out QQ increases chances of winning with two small pair, you have position in the hand unless you pull ahead which is then an easy lead, and in general muddles ranges and makes you a tougher player. And he might not even have KK.

and when the QQ sticks around he's taking the worst of it, even with the second best pair

And lastly, since this is H/L we also have low equity and low board fold equity which makes it even more clear

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 11-08-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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