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Old 03-22-2017, 06:59 AM   #1
Soldier of Minbet
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 10,275
Razz General Question - Call and see or jam 3rd

The equity differentials on 3rd street between playable hands aren't greatly significant.

Here's an example situation.

Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 Limit Razz Tournament - t200/t400 Limit + t40 - 7 players - View hand 3040826
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Seat 2: t2160 M = 3.72
Seat 3: t3365 M = 5.80
Hero (): t4695 M = 8.09
Seat 5: t2685 M = 4.63
Seat 6: t22273 M = 38.40
Seat 7: t2420 M = 4.17
Seat 8: t5865 M = 10.11

3rd Street: (1.4 SB)
Seat 2: xx xx 8 ____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q ____Seat 3 brings in for $60____Seat 3 folds
Hero: 4 6 7 ___Hero completes___Hero calls
Seat 5: xx xx T ____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx A ____Seat 6 folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5 ____Seat 7 raises
Seat 8: xx xx T ____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (5.7 SB) (2 players)
Hero: 4 6 7 A ___Hero bets
Seat 7: xx xx 5 K ____Seat 7 calls

If we can ignore the question of whether or not it was right for me to play my hand... (i'm guessing it is)

It appears Seat 7 has 3 wheel cards or 3 to a 6.

He puts in two bets on 3rd but then goes quite far behind on 4th street when he bricks with a King. He then has to call to see 5th because of pot odds.

Not only that, I now know what his likely pairing cards are.

So if he was ahead on 3rd, which he was, it led to him putting in a bunch of chips behind because he made the pot big and gave himself reason to continue.

The question is whether or not putting in that extra bet, or indeed putting in 3 or 4 bets on 3rd street is really all that worth it? Does the risk exceed the reward or vice versa?

I'm starting to think of someone completes, better just to call them even with A23!
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:21 PM   #2
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 930
Re: Razz General Question - Call and see or jam 3rd

The advice I've heard re:3rd street in razz is don't jam in general even when you know you have the marginally best hand since equities run so close you want to leave yourself the ability to get out later in the hand. This principle is especially true in tournaments, whereas in cash games it is ok to push our equity when we have it.

The other reason one might want to raise is to push players behind out of the pot. In this hand though, the Q is very rarely defending the bring in vs 2 players, so the only potentially scary card a raise can push out is the 8.

If the raiser has any 3 wheel cards, he's 55/45 vs your exact hand and at best 60/40 vs the bottom of your range. That is legitimate equity to push and probably correct in a cash game. In a tournament it probably depends on how deep you are and in what stage of a tournament.

Let's say this hand got really spewy and the 8 reraised and you call; three wheel cards could then cap it to push their equity for 2 more small bets -- would that be correct? Whereas if the 8 reraises and you fold or you reraise for some reason, then the wheel cards just call since it's heads up so they could only get 1 extra small bet into the pot with a cap?
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:23 PM   #3
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,001
Re: Razz General Question - Call and see or jam 3rd

Depending on the dead cards your equity advantage might be significant or by manipulating the pot they will play incorrectly on later streets.

This will vary by person.
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:33 PM   #4
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Posts: 23,912
Re: Razz General Question - Call and see or jam 3rd

Generally the bigger the pot, the harder it will be for you and your opponent to make a mistake, so keeping it smaller will allow you to maximize a skill advantage in many situations

There are still a lot of factors to consider though, who is likely to have iniative on 4th with the lower card is quite important for example, when in doubt I'd recommend most players opt for the agressive choice.. even though this might reduce your postflop edge in some situations an agressive image can make you money in other ways
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