This may be true, but there is a reason I have never seen you do it...

What you are describing here is a (semi) steal, which was not the situation that TStoneMBD described. Your completion in that spot is pretty standard. The 9 behind you may call with worse cards under than you and that's OK because you should be driving out the K and getting it heads up. What TStoneMBD was describing was limping behind a bunch of limps and getting good odds on 3rd unless someone raises and reraises in which case you can fold. But if the table is generally passive you could get away with it.

No, TS specifically mentions the situation as an open-limp with a bad door card into a field of little cards. That's why everybody is saying it's a bad play.

Nothing in poker, situationally, is ever 100 percent good or bad, but this is pretty close to 100 percent bad.

To be fair to Tstone, he didn't specify how many little cards were behind, and obv the EV of such a play will be reduced drastically with the number of little cards yet to act. At least he didn't propose completing in that spot or calling a bet and a raise as I've seen plenty of "pro" level players do.

I figure we'd better take a look at what he did say ...
... and I have the same question I had in his other thread: what pot odds?

If there is a raise and a reraise behind you, you surely aren't playing a baby brick up against such an apparently strong board, if there are just folds behind you, you don't have any pot odds, especially with more than one "low" cards yet to act.

Perhaps this poster only plays Razz in tournaments and is referring to late-stage play where the antes are very high?

Excellent Post!

i am by no means a great razz player and im sure that there are many posters on this forum who are better at razz than i, but i am a very successful high stakes mixed game player who is a specialist in no games at this point. razz is in basically every rotation that i play. i might only play 1 event at the ws this year and its probably going to be the 10k mixed (horset and plo).

as far as my 23-T example, when and whether this hand is profitable is completely dependent on the current pot odds and the up cards behind you. at some point, depending on upcards behind you, a hand like this clearly becomes unprofitable. at the same time, depending on upcards, a hand like this becomes tremendously profitable. clearly defining exactly what variables make this hand profitable and what variables dont is quite out of my scope at this point and its probably out of the scope of just about everybody posting in this thread despite there being quite a few people posting that i do greatly respect.

having said that, i think its pretty hard to build a case for why it can never be right to open limp with 23-T. simply put, either way if you raise or call youre turning your hand face up. you clearly have 2 low cards in the hole or youre simply representing 2 low cards because conditions allow you to profitably play a hand even as weak as J2-T. whether you complete or limp isnt what defines your range, its your range itself and the fact that we arent varying our action based on the strength of our concealed hand, but the current table conditions instead.

there are a couple of obvious reasons why openlimping with these such hands loses equity. you allow people to limp behind you with hands that wouldnt call a completion to begin with, but are now justified to do so and you also allow the bringin to see 4th street cheaply. i think the negative reasons that i outlined in my original post for open completing these hands certainly outweighs the disadvantages in at least some scenarios of 3rd street razz examples no matter how likely or unlikely they are.

now, if you can buyin to my strategy that openlimping with 23-T is sometimes correct and can also help me understand the division of when its appropriate to raise, fold and call with such a hand and hands similiar, i would really like to talk to you. i truly believe that balancing your poker games in every aspect is what allows you to beat tougher levels of competition. mastering exploitable strategies only allows you to beat fish.

i appreciate those who challenge my viewpoints. you only make me better. however, please challenge me from a position that doesnt apply exploitable strategies to weak players. i only want to learn optimal strategies in every regard at this point.

This is precisely why limping into open little cards with a Ten up is itself an exploitable strategy. Everyone at the table will know nearly your precise hand on every street, and can play you perfectly for value.

Balancing your play to deceive your opponents is a worthwhile goal, but in a game where some of your cards are on display you have less deception available to you. Specifically on Third street with a Ten up, you can't fool anybody.

Your point about bigger mixed games having better pot odds is an important one, and I'm glad you clarified it. I think it was misunderstood in the earlier discussion. In a $100-200 game with, for example, a $25 ante and a $50 bring-in, then of course you will play a wider range of hands for value than a $15-30 with a $3 ante and a $5 bring-in.

Help me out here, but isn't this answer a function of your image and the style of the players behind you ?

I mean, I'm inclined to say that you should randomise your open-completing and openlimping in some way, but I keep getting stuck at the styles of the players yet to act. I presume that you include this as an important variable, right ? Just checking.

It would have been nice to have this post in the thread where you first proposed the action. This was the thread where you just asked if it's ever a good idea to limp in. It is; I think that was discussed.

If you believe this, then you have some specific scenario in mind in which it does make sense. Please share, because I think it's pretty simple to justify never limping the hand. But then, I have limped it and won, not a big pot, but won. Doesn't mean I should have, just means it can happen. It's also true that it's poker. I once made a bunch of BBs with (KK)A.

As for wwT being, at some times, "tremendously profitable" sure it can be.

GL at the WSOP, I hope you win two bracelets, at least. You can come back and show us all the big score in a Razz hand that came from limping wwT. It still won't make it a good idea, but it will be satisfying to post and a great read.

TStone 4/8 going into the final table, good luck