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Old 09-13-2017, 06:59 AM   #1
dev209
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razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit Razz $5/$10 ante $0.75 - 3 players

Seat 1 Hero: $180.88 [] [] []
Seat 4 AikaKone: $1,031.11 [] [] []
Seat 5 skogsbarn: $73.38 [X] [X]

3rd Street: ($2.25) (3 players)
AikaKone brings, skogsbarn folds, Hero raises to $5, AikaKone raises to $10, Hero calls $5

4th Street: ($22.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $5, Hero calls $5

5th Street: ($32.25) (2 players)
Hero bets $10, AikaKone calls $10

6th Street: ($52.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $10, Hero calls $10

River: ($72.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $10, Hero calls $10

Hero showed, Lo: T,6,5,3,2
AikaKone showed, Lo: K,8,5,4,A
Hero won $90.25
(Rake: $2)


3rd street - standard - i mean i could 4bet, but i want to disguis my hand a little bit. makes sense?

4th street - i think i have to call here, 1st our hand is still strong, 2nd the likelihood that Villain already got an Ace is a little bit increased, because of his 3rd street play and we don't block an Ace and Villain2 folded a deuce.

5th street - leading on 5th, its fine i think.

6th street - I cant bet, correct? Folding is to weak? I mean Villain would have folded probably his paired A on 5th Street, but he could have paired the 4 as well; the factors are the same as on 4th Street. I check/call and still draw to a better Hand if i am behind.

7th Street - do we have to call here anytime? Are there cards, which makes it ebtter to check/call? Like a 6,3,5,2 (we pair) this would decrease the likelihood for Villain to have a hand... Is this a factor to consider if we herocall?
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:09 PM   #2
zoogenhiem
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

I'm a razz newb but not 3betting (you erroneously say 4betting) 3rd seems fine to avoid from playing a bloated pot. I guess it comes down to how much bring ins resteal in razz.

4th street seems like standard call. He could've paired. Vs his exact hand, you're 35%. Worst case scenario you're 23%, but you only need 15% equity to call given the pot odds.

5th street I'd definitely lead, for instance you're 66% vs his exact hand and your worse case scenario you're still 47%.

6th street definitely can't fold. You have a very good draw that you would probably still call with even if you didn't have a made ten, although that makes it even better because as you find out on 7th you still have showdown value.

On 7th street, I guess you just have to pay. It's hard to analyze objectively considering you've already shown us the results. For future postings, j suggest hiding the opponent's downcards.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:52 PM   #3
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Only thing I would do differently is k/r 5. Opp has represented the best hand the whole way so let him bet one more time.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:35 PM   #4
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Only thing I would do differently is k/r 5. Opp has represented the best hand the whole way so let him bet one more time.
It seems like he would just check unless he was super smooth underneath
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:46 PM   #5
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by dev209 View Post
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit Razz $5/$10 ante $0.75 - 3 players

Seat 1 Hero: $180.88 [] [] []
Seat 4 AikaKone: $1,031.11 [] [] []
Seat 5 skogsbarn: $73.38 [X] [X]

3rd Street: ($2.25) (3 players)
AikaKone brings, skogsbarn folds, Hero raises to $5, AikaKone raises to $10, Hero calls $5

4th Street: ($22.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $5, Hero calls $5

5th Street: ($32.25) (2 players)
Hero bets $10, AikaKone calls $10

6th Street: ($52.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $10, Hero calls $10

River: ($72.25) (2 players)
AikaKone bets $10, Hero calls $10

Hero showed, Lo: T,6,5,3,2
AikaKone showed, Lo: K,8,5,4,A
Hero won $90.25
(Rake: $2)


3rd street - standard - i mean i could 4bet, but i want to disguis my hand a little bit. makes sense?

4th street - i think i have to call here, 1st our hand is still strong, 2nd the likelihood that Villain already got an Ace is a little bit increased, because of his 3rd street play and we don't block an Ace and Villain2 folded a deuce.

5th street - leading on 5th, its fine i think.

6th street - I cant bet, correct? Folding is to weak? I mean Villain would have folded probably his paired A on 5th Street, but he could have paired the 4 as well; the factors are the same as on 4th Street. I check/call and still draw to a better Hand if i am behind.

7th Street - do we have to call here anytime? Are there cards, which makes it ebtter to check/call? Like a 6,3,5,2 (we pair) this would decrease the likelihood for Villain to have a hand... Is this a factor to consider if we herocall?
Looks like you played the hand very well and zoog had some good comments

I would tend to go for value on 3rd because you have three wheel and two cards that would pair you out. And I do think you want to bloat the pot to make it really correct to call on 4th no matter how the cards fall.

But there seems to be some merit in disguising your hand somewhat. And just his re-raise means that the pot is big enough to call on 4th no matter what. If you re-raise he will usually accurately surmise that a 7 or 8 does not pair you

I would not consider the call on 7th a herocall though it was a good call but one you should make against many players given the odds
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:56 AM   #6
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
It seems like he would just check unless he was super smooth underneath
Disagree completely. He puts you on a steal/semi-steal and checking 5 there shows a lot of weakness. He should fire very often.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:09 PM   #7
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Disagree completely. He puts you on a steal/semi-steal and checking 5 there shows a lot of weakness. He should fire very often.
I'm not sure; we had to have had something to call on 4th, can't call with a four card JT or something like that if we were on a steal.
But maybe he should bet with any four card 8 or better in case we paired the 6.

Regardless I think a bet out is what I would do in case he paired and I can win right there but I can be persuaded to go with c/r if we know he's betting regardless

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 09-14-2017 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:42 PM   #8
dev209
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

thank you guys for those thoughts!
some thought to 5th street by me, afetr I read your comments;
I think on 5th you can definitely checkraise, but we need maybe some indicators that villain is betting here?
Maybe the 5th Street play depends on the 3rd street play;
(1) if we cap on 3rd street (as suggested), we should/could lead on 5th (if scenario on 4th is the same), because we look to strong!?
(2)But after we disguised the hand on 3rd street (only called), I could understand the idea of checkraising on 5th...
thank you very much guys its very important to here good and interesting opinions!

And yes i will hide the results next time!
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Old 09-16-2017, 04:52 AM   #9
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by dev209 View Post
thank you guys for those thoughts!
some thought to 5th street by me, afetr I read your comments;
I think on 5th you can definitely checkraise, but we need maybe some indicators that villain is betting here?
Maybe the 5th Street play depends on the 3rd street play;
(1) if we cap on 3rd street (as suggested), we should/could lead on 5th (if scenario on 4th is the same), because we look to strong!?
(2)But after we disguised the hand on 3rd street (only called), I could understand the idea of checkraising on 5th...
thank you very much guys its very important to here good and interesting opinions!

And yes i will hide the results next time!
First of all, don't cap 3rd. Keep your range wide and your opponent guessing as to how strong you are and what types of cards pair me. My favorite opponents in razz are those who give away the strength of their holding by going to war on 3. Now I know that wheel cards are very likely to pair them and 8s aren't, for example. I agree that if you mistakenly raise again on 3 then you can't try to k/r 5 since you look too strong. As it stands, good players will continue to attack your perceived weakness on 5. In addition to getting in an extra bet good here, k/r on 5 protects the weaker part of your range by punishing him for attacking too often. So much of razz is picking up small-medium pots with aggression. Make your opponents think twice before they try.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:51 PM   #10
Ray Zee
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

generally in razz you need to push all edges as the hands go back and forth.
and getting cute trying for check raises if you have the best made hand showing doesnt work often unless he is drawing so good your c/r is worse.
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Old 10-03-2017, 02:08 AM   #11
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
generally in razz you need to push all edges as the hands go back and forth.
and getting cute trying for check raises if you have the best made hand showing doesnt work often unless he is drawing so good your c/r is worse.
It will work a high % here when he already thinks you're weak. "Push all edges" is exactly what we need to punish him for trying to do.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:41 AM   #12
oscillator
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

My gf is asleep next to me so I can't go in much depth. Everybody's line of thinking in this thread has merit, and I like that a c/r on 5th is being discussed, but the overall protection/balance/value play considering 4th street cards calls for a lead on 5th.

If fourth has us both hitting the same card ( 8-k in particular ) and then he catches A and we catch 6 on 5th, then a cr for value and balance becomes the weighted play.

Most players bad-good can find a check 5th street vs the hand that peels 4th in this spot and they're not turning their hand face-up in doing so ( wheel king vs six ten should be a flip and seven ten i think you give up very small equity ).

3rd street is a ratio of 3 bets and flats depending on resteal ratios, post flop play by opponent, and your overall preference of play, but you can find ways to balance full range and have 3 bets and flats in both.

After making your 3rd street decision, which is perfectly fine, you played the hand great! GL!
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:58 PM   #13
electrical
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Loving oscillator's post.

Specifically, like Ray Zee says, you will get a c/r in when you're flipping or a slight dog 100 percent of the time, and can get jammed. If villain does have a wheel draw you can b/c to avoid putting in three bets if you lead.

You will whiff a c/r with hands like villain actually has and some worse that still have equity vs your hand, and those are the hands you should never let see cards for free. I agree that a part of the weaker range will bet and you get to c/r vs a hand that won't fold, but I think the combination of the bets you miss when his restealing range (a Nine or bad Eight draw) checks it through and the multiple bets you have to pay when villain has a smooth draw should make a c/r Fifth a rare play.

Some of the hands you get to c/r you're really close to in equity and vs them you're just increasing your variance, which can be reasonable if it puts villain out of his comfort zone and might earn you a check through later in the session, but in a vacuum I tend to open myself up to a jam mostly when I've played a strong part of my range deceptively or there's a reason to think villain is overselling. The flat on Third might qualify as deceptive, but some very strong players default to flatting their entire opening range, which means your only indication of hand strength is the peel on 4th, which is either stubbornness or a legitimate three-piece hand.

That's right, I said it. A three-piece hand. Dill with it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:30 AM   #14
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

I would tend to bet in Villain's spot because people don't check/raise our spot. People generally play very straightforwardly and assume that if you check that means that you think you are behind, and they'll believe you and bet. This is, of course, assuming that your opponent is a decent and aggressive player. Check/raising this spot , like I think I said earlier ITT, will force your opponent to give you extra free cards in similar situations.

I'm not like saying that a ch/r is mandatory or anything like that. It's obviously tricky and isn't for everybody. I just think that this is a really good opportunity to take advantage of the fact that nobody every believes that anyone has it in razz and most people bet every street.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:32 AM   #15
RolldUpTrips
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Oh, and as for 3rd street, I'm strongly in the never-3b camp and like to play against people who do - most give a lot away about the content of their hands by whether or not they do and help me make much better decisions later in the hand.
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:17 AM   #16
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Re: razz 5/10 - factors for calling down on 7th Street

Three-piece hand declared. Thanks as always for doing a nice job handling all of the leg-work of my vague posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
I just think that this is a really good opportunity to take advantage of the fact that nobody every believes that anyone has it in razz and most people bet every street.
I agree with points mentioned previously in this post, and have a playing style that aligns with your points. The issue for us isn't what you mentioned above however, it's that villains re-stealing range is typically significantly wider than our range that peels fourth here, and we should be playing 5th accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Oh, and as for 3rd street, I'm strongly in the never-3b camp and like to play against people who do - most give a lot away about the content of their hands by whether or not they do and help me make much better decisions later in the hand.
Agree that most are imbalanced, but disagree that a pure raise call range is the way to go. I'm sorry that I prefer not to expand on this for the moment, but the poker landscape is what it is. I would suggest that people explore both paths thoughtfully and find what works for them.
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