How about if there was the betting round on 2nd street, then 3rd and 4th streets were dealt together, with the next bet on 4th street?

Sort of a take-off on mississippi stud.

Old thread but I had an idea.

What if Razz was played the way it is now with the same betting structure and same high card bring-in but with one change. If the bring-in sees 4th street they get their 4th street card down. Everyone else still in gets their 4th street card up as usual. The rest of the game plays as normal.

I think the stealth factor would make defending irresistable sometimes to some, perhaps even multiway. It also makes 4th less of an uphill parlay for the defender. Now if the opener catches bad the defender can often be in business regardless of their own down card. The opener/stealer also now never has the luxury of an auto-bet when the defender catches bad.

The benefits of a 4th down card would extend throughout the hand perhaps leveling the playing field a bit but certainly making it more interesting.

I think I'll call it Stealth Card Razz. Maybe the name is lame but the game might gain, lol.

eh i dont think it woudl change much...if you are defending...whether your 4th is down or up, when you call a bet it's not like you didn't catch a good card...whether villain can see it or not...doubt anyone would be trying to float a 4th street bet with a brick and K...but you never know.

I kinda like this idea. I don't think it'll catch on, but I didn't think razz would catch on, so what do I know?

I find it interesting that the value of having 4th street down might be quantifiable. If its value were calculated, this format might be tweaked, if necessary, into something fun.

jmo

How would you determine who acts first on 4th if one+ player now has 2 upcards and 1 has only 1?

The guy with the extra down card acts first on every street. He gets the advantage of secrecy, give him the disadvantage of being out of position.

EDIT: came up with a slight modification that would work well I think. If the guy with the extra down card makes it to the river, his river card is dealt face up, and then the river betting round plays normally.

Good point skoldpadda

I would still go with low hand goes first. If some have trouble with an uneven number of cards then simply treat the 4th street down card like an imaginary lowest card just below an ace that obviously can't be paired. I think the key here is to give the bring-in more "play" and to get players to defend more liberally.
With xx6J versus xxKx the 67 goes first.
With xx6J2Kx versus xxKx54x the Kx54 goes first.

Don't know about the river card face up to the bring-in. I think that may be too big of a turnaround in "advantages" but maybe not since it is limit and the pot is big anyway. The problem with all this is that it is hard to quantify changes. Probably be fun learning though. It would also likely give a skill advantage to those who study and learn the quickest. Like changing stud high-low split to 8 or better, etc.

hey, you know why else a low-card bring in would increase action? You can now semibluff r/r 3rd instead of having to flat call most of the time you can defend.

Why have a bring in at all? Just pump up the antes and use a rotating dealer button.

Bumping because this is still a good idea.

+1. This solution is elegant, and easily implemented.

I've played this way and it seems to be much better than the standard, and much more popular. It could be tweaked a little by making the bring-in tiny.

But one question is: is it any better than electrical's suggestion? From my stand point, electrical's might be an improvement, but I've played a lot of formats that featured unopened pots, so it seems a normal thing to try. Others may find it baffling, however.

The real question to me is: is razz worth saving? It was a game designed to take off tourists. It has some interest as a toy game, and I learned a lot by trying to figure it out, but what is exciting, or even interesting, about playing it?

OFF THE ISLAND! NOW!

Hilo was the game that skinned the suckers. Razz has aspects that are unique to it and almost any game like that creates unique mistakes to exploit. I'm fond of razz and I think people don't want to play it because they don't understand these unique situations. If you don't recognize those spots and play them well, it seems like a purely mechanical game where the best looking hand gets the pot.

The spot that comes up most often is the player with the clearly second-best hand (not a hand that is possibly behind but a hand that is absolutely behind another hand) raising/jamming in a 3-way pot not just to potentially fold out another hand but for value. That exact situation comes up really infrequently in other games, but all the time in Razz.

A lot of people know that a smooth draw is a favorite over a rough made hand on Fifth, for example, but you don't have smooth draws often, so it's important to know when your 86 draw is a favorite over a made hand like a Jack, and more important yet to know when your Jack with a redraw is a favorite over a Seven draw that has misapplied this concept and is jamming you.

It's a cool game, but not if you just peek at it.