So in super stud8 I’ve seen (or heard) of the following happen at least twice. Same player folds out of turn and either they take their hand back or something and when action ends up on them they try to Raise (with a diffenrt upcard and likely rolled up).

Nobody has made a huge deal out of it and basically just made sure hsnd was dead and some people asked what the best course of action was.

I want to wait till it happens again, play my hand till 7th street and then say that’s not their upcard, their hand is dead. What’s the ruling here, will hand be season or will they say significant action and it’s to late.

I feel this is the most likely way they learn a lesson and stop doing stuff like this.

my guess is they'll let it go as played.

Nobody will ever rule in your favor in that spot, nor should they. Best way to combat this is to chastise and embarrass the person

lol nah going to 7th street and hoping the ruling works out is dangerous

Call the floor explain what you think is going on and having a conversation should deter future stuff


You can also give him a verbal warning yourself (non violent of course) which is effective as long as you don't have a pencil neck and a set of noodle arms. A simple, "We know what you are up to, don't try that **** here" is effective in my experience.

But I actually do think you can (and should) win a ruling should it go to 7th street.


Go to the cameras and see what the upcard was originally. I've actually been in a game before where that was done but for a different reason.


If floor ok with it, put the pot in escrow and play on until ruling comes down. If not, everyone waits.

If you know the floor well you can possibly verify that they will take it to the cameras should this happen. I have no problem punishing scammers like this.

Why on earth are they finding so much altruism from their peers? Mixed game players are usually pretty observant. Hasn't everyone caught on after a couple of times?

Proper ruling is that they're bound to fold, duh. Keep the hole cards in the muck and replace the upcard in front of the player. When that player's turn arrives, flip over the upcard. Why would they ever be allowed to fold out of turn and then "change their mind" once, let alone repeatedly?


Worse than dangerous. That shouldn't be allowed to succeed. Now it's rewarding you for trying to re-angle. Once significant action takes place on the hand with the new upcard, you've accepted the legitimacy of the hand.

Floor away from the table is best. Angle shooters know what they're doing. I mean, it's fine if you want them to straighten up, but they're not an asset to the game. Best to let them get a warning then get racked up the second time they try it, opening a seat for a player who doesn't do stuff like this.


Terrible floor ruling then. Even in normal, non-discard stud games. Once you've accepted action all the way down, you have no recourse to claim the hand is invalid. Otherwise you can freeroll: play out the hand and on 7th street declare the hand void if you missed your draws.

But this thread is about discarding games right? How would you rectify that on the river? Fish around in the muck for the discards and let them make a proper discarding decision on 7th?

Regardless, once you've accepted the 3rd street action and the dealer burns and puts out 4th (maybe even before if there's significant multiway action on 3rd) it's way too late to void a hand. Has to be that way to avoid re-angling by freerolling.

If you know the floor well and their response is "Sounds great. Let's take it to 7th street and then I'll have them escrow the pot," the kind and decent thing you could do is help them work on their résumé because they're abysmal at their job and need to find a new line of work.

Also OP I share your revulsion at cheaters and it's honorable that you want to clean up your game but trying to make yourself the police almost never works. Just talk to the floor about it.

I suggest away from the table because animosity makes games worse. I don't care whether the angler feels animosity (I wish they'd rack up anyway) but no need to let it spill over to the rest of the table. The floor should be trained to deal with conflict deescalation better than most of us can.

Broadway straight, you can absolutely win this ruling.

If someone forgets to make their discards their hand is dead, period. This is somewhat the same kind of thing.

I’d verify with floor though first. And word it carefully that you are not trying to catch him per se.

Thought it should have been obvious that we would confirm with floor carefully as not to suggest we are going to try and take advantage of it, and don’t even have to say all the way to 7th street either

“Hi Bill Floor, we suspect some guy is angling and changing his up card, if we suspect this and cameras verify it is his hand dead at any time?”

The onus should not be on other players to recognize the angle on 3rd street. It could easily be recognized on later streets, “wait a sec, thought you had a 9 up.”

I mean, maybe you trust the floors to be consistent (and IMO wrong) or maybe you just have one floor.

This is more like if some technical error occurred on earlier streets, say a PLO overbet or a player getting skipped. Once significant action occurs, those are deemed to be accepted by all players. The original angler can claim, "I made an honest mistake and no one pointed it out until 7th street." That obviously can't apply if he shows up with too many cards at showdown.

I'll have no sympathy for either one of you if the hand is ruled 100% live. People who cheat will get what's coming to them eventually with or without your elaborate shenanigans, and you're further compromising the integrity of the game. Holy hell will erupt no matter what the ruling, which oughtta be fabulous for attracting recreational players who as we all know seek out games with lots of shouting. Let me know if the game fails to break.

If the floor is sharp enough for you to trust then they're sharp enough to throw the original angler out.

I still don't get why the hand is even live here. He mucked. Leave his upcard face up until his turn. Easiest ruling ever.

I mean, I get "friendly game" rules like if you muck by accident we'll let your hand play and not be too technical. I don't get how those rules coeexist with a known cheater. If he's cheating, then enforce the rule that a fold out of turn is binding.

Curious what the casino poker forum thinks though. Mind if I cross post (if you didn't already)?

I'm interested to hear opinions as I'm genuinely curious

But changing the upcard can never be an honest mistake.

More than likely I would just point out this guy's angle shoot right at the time. I'm simply saying in this thread that you could possibly win this ruling and I think you should in theory.

Quite frankly it would be quite funny actually. The game wouldn't break, we would all be laughing for hours. At least I would be.

letting it go until 7th is folly and makes you arguably a bigger scumbag than the guy trying to cheat. if I was the floor is ask you why you let him cheat until 7th and now after putting in 4 bets are trying to get his money on a technically instead of speaking up on 3rd. ( I say this respectfully)

hoping the floor even knows the rules is a gamble...

im assuming the guy has trips in hand and is sneaking the j or 10 or whatever up ? best thing is to out him to table and make a huge deal of it. and make him or her as uncomfortable as possible. Having met you and knowing some others who have respect for you, I'd assume the floor will take your side when presented with this information as well and bounce the guy.

as im sure most would guess, therein lies the dlilema. nobody wants this player bounced, and nobody really wants to make a huge scene. They simply want this person to stop the big time angle shooting (theres lots of other angles to but nobody really cares about those.

It seemed to me like this would be a good way to learn a lesson, I didn't intend for it to be a spot where I am angling or freerolling another person. However, if you want to switch out your upcards and that results in you getting freerolled in a pot, that seems reasonable, since its blatant cheating.

If i saw it happen and I wasn't in the and I d point it out right away

Can simply just say something like, "Ha ha looks like Bobby is doing the ole' switch the upcard trick again, he's so funny!"

They don’t learn a lesson from this. But I’m pretty sure if they have a 4 figure pot taken away from them they’ll think twice about doing it (or anything) again

Tell me if this is wrong, it probably is but sometimes I just get tired of it. Same player is pat in Archie in multiway pot. They are last to act on river and “accidentally” expose 2345 out of turn. Rec player says I don’t know what she’s doing, what’s that mean. I tell him it means she has an 85 low. But he ignores my advise and checks a 76 low and scoops.

Now whether or not accidentally exposing 80% of your hand when the action is on somebody else isn’t that bad, I feel some responsibly of trying to protect new or causal players from a situation somebody is trying to take advtabfe of them in

Trying to teach people lessons at the poker table is a terrible approach when it distracts you from maximizing your own EV. They'll get theirs, through either a temporary or permanent ban. And if the people running the room have a poker IQ above about 80 the "wrong upcard" trick was never going to work anyway.

But that's not enough because maybe the first time the guy got a warning and the second time you could get him thrown out but instead you'd like to try to take $1000s to punish him. So you're trying this in a game that's 20/40 or above, i.e. a pretty established casino, and you think the floor staff is trustworthy to give consistent rulings, but not smart enough to catch on to your scheme. Maybe these floors think it's totally normal to just "remember" your opponent has the wrong upcard on seventh street after 12 big bets are in the pot.

(Originally I thought this was like a three-table cardroom in a one-horse town and it might work, but not in a game with $1000 pots.)

I will admit I'm probably wrong about the "action accepted" interpretation. Here's some informed opinion about your idea from the Casino Poker forum:

The good news is, you probably get your money back from the pot. The bad news is, you're probably reverse freerolling: Best case, you get a warning. Or maybe you get thrown out for the night.

(Actually I think this whole thread is a mild troll and I took the bait but that's OK. This is a fun discussion.)

Final piece of advice:

Pretty sure if you went to 7th and then pointed out the angle it would be ruled that it was "accepted action".

Your statements are not consistent. Having the other player banned will often. Hurt my EV more than any angle shoot they attempt or pot that we play

Yeah man, I'm not against you on this one. I'm just rambling and laying out options

I don't think thread is a troll. the op. plays mix in an established room. and this is a situation that can arise esp late guys stuck trying everything to get even(maybe just massive scum )


not that I'm some superstar high limit player but I find as I've moved around limits and games, the scum bags are even worse. if for no reason the money doesn't matter to them.


I feel ya on not wanting fish kicked out, but I generally defer to not letting a guy actively try to rob me. is rather have no game or less of a game personally. some would say spiteful, but I don't like people trying to rob me.