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Old 11-26-2017, 08:53 AM   #1
EsmagaSapos
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Cards Memorizing Process

One of the most important aspects on Stud is of course the memorization of the dead cards. Like me, most people are not Stu Ungar, they don't have photographic memory, so they have to find other ways.

I believe many of you would love to have that ability when you believe your opponent is on a low straight draw and you would like to know which low cards have you seen, especially on a looser table.

What is the first thing you do when you receive your cards? You look for the cards who could improve your hand? You count the Aces, Kings, Queens and Jacks on the table? You then see the duplicates... then look for the suits? How hard do you try to memorize the lowest cards? How do you do in the later streets?

Any information on that though process would be magnificent.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:01 PM   #2
YeahYou
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

I look at my first 2 cards immediately. Then scan all the cards and memorize them in order in my head. For example if the upcards are 2h ks 3c 9s kd 6s 8h I'll say to myself kk98632 over and over. I also say 3 spades 2 hearts. It helps me to say the cards in the melody of a 7 digit phone number if there are 7 other cards or in two sets of three if there are 6 but I think you should just try different ways and see what works for you. Maybe try to deal 7 cards face up at your house and practice.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:27 PM   #3
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

I have a lot to say on this but I'll try to keep it brief.

First: memorizing cards is pretty easy. USING that information is a lot harder. With a little practice I was able to remember every dealt card, but when actually trying to use that info tactically I would struggle, because what I had memorized was a string of numbers, like 2279TQK and so then if I wanted to know if the guy was gonna make an OESD I'd have to think, are there 4s and 9s that I saw already?

Second: although I could memorize suits too, unpacking it was hard, so finally I just memorized numbers and took note "there are more spades out than normal and less hearts"

So, third: approximate information that you can use instantly is more useful than exact information that you have a hard time accessing. Experiment.

I don't play that much any more but basically I stopped memorizing cards that weren't folded. In a typical live game it's 4 people out of 8 to 4th street so why memorize 4 cards that aren't going to get folded? If they all see 5th then that's 8 less cards to memorize. You do have to juggle a little more since whenever anyone folds you have to add to your list. I tend to remember them in sorted order.

I don't have 100% recall, but like 80% is good enough for the games I played in.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:21 PM   #4
Ray Zee
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

learn first to know all cards that pertain to your hand. as the liveliness of your hand is the most important thing most times.

after mastering that go on to putting all folded cards into how they react to the other hands.

this way you use the info while learning and remembering it. making it a one step process rather than a two.
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:53 AM   #5
Kurn, son of Mogh
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

When I play stud, I don't look at my hole cards on 3rd until it's my turn to act. Gives me more time to see the door cards, and remember the ones that are folded before the action gets to me.

I don't have any mnemonic trick to help me, I just trust my memory.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:19 PM   #6
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

In my opinion I think it’s a mistake to go overboard trying to memorize cards.

I just check the liveness of my cards. Then I make obvious observations about what’s out, “many hearts”, “3 tens” etc.

Sure maybe I’ll miss the rare occasion where I can put in an extra bet because I have a lock but still not worth it to me in terms of the trade off of having more fun and reducing fatigue. I would never dream of sitting there memorizing cards
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:28 PM   #7
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
In my opinion I think it’s a mistake to go overboard trying to memorize cards.

I just check the liveness of my cards. Then I make obvious observations about what’s out, “many hearts”, “3 tens” etc.

Sure maybe I’ll miss the rare occasion where I can put in an extra bet because I have a lock but still not worth it to me in terms of the trade off of having more fun and reducing fatigue. I would never dream of sitting there memorizing cards
Remembering which ranks are out is quite important. For example, you'd like to know how live an opponent's cards are to decide whether or not to value bet one big or two small pair in a lot of spots. As for suits, I just try to note if any suits are particularly live or particularly dead.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:07 PM   #8
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

in one night it may not make a difference. but over a lifetime of playing tiny edges add up to immense amounts of money. you need to exploit them as all of us also have tiny leaks.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:53 AM   #9
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
in one night it may not make a difference. but over a lifetime of playing tiny edges add up to immense amounts of money. you need to exploit them as all of us also have tiny leaks.
For me the extra hours due to having more fun and less fatigue add up much more substantially. It's a trade off
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:03 AM   #10
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Remembering which ranks are out is quite important. For example, you'd like to know how live an opponent's cards are to decide whether or not to value bet one big or two small pair in a lot of spots. As for suits, I just try to note if any suits are particularly live or particularly dead.
Can't really see the presence of your opponent having one less out or something like that coming to play but I may explore it in a future article I write for the Magazine.

If there are two or more of a rank of three or more of a suit I pick that up in my "observations"

i used to play stud online with the card tracker so I always looked at it and had a good sense on how little the specifics outside my observations influenced my decisions so that probably factors into it.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:03 AM   #11
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Say the board and my hand is:

(Ah5h)5d, 8s, Qs, 8c, 6s, Kh, 9s, Tc

I think in order:
1. My pair cards are completely live and flush has one out. Flush cards in hole.
2. "Two eights, 4 spades"
3. I'm almost certainly playing and I think my opponents will more than likely put me on a big pair in hole or diamonds rather than my holding

I'm not memorizing every single card.

Yes Tc is probably out of my memory. But if later catch a ten or my opponent does it's really not going to change my decision point at any time and if it does the it's razor tight and only exists in theory really because you don't ever know exactly what your opponent has anyway
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:54 PM   #12
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
In my opinion I think it’s a mistake to go overboard trying to memorize cards.

I just check the liveness of my cards. Then I make obvious observations about what’s out, “many hearts”, “3 tens” etc.

Sure maybe I’ll miss the rare occasion where I can put in an extra bet because I have a lock but still not worth it to me in terms of the trade off of having more fun and reducing fatigue. I would never dream of sitting there memorizing cards
It's not a mistake if someone can do it but I never could. My approach is to remember third street and note if any suits are dead-ish. Playing mid-stakes if someone calls on fifth then they have what it looks like they have depending on what I think of them as a player.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:12 PM   #13
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
It's not a mistake if someone can do it but I never could. My approach is to remember third street and note if any suits are dead-ish. Playing mid-stakes if someone calls on fifth then they have what it looks like they have depending on what I think of them as a player.
Still think it’s a mistake if it detracts from other broad thinking, increases fatigue which leads to less hours, or reduces fun. I can’t prove it of course but I would think it has to affect at least one if not all of those areas. But this is why I love not having a boss, I can just do what I feel is most efficient and correct for me and those that disagree can do what they want.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:18 PM   #14
Howard Beale
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

You misunderstood me. What I meant by 'Those who can do it' means those who can do it easily and not have the ill effects you mention.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:31 PM   #15
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
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You misunderstood me. What I meant by 'Those who can do it' means those who can do it easily and not have the ill effects you mention.
You misunderstood me. I’m saying it’s a null set.

Certainly it does not apply to the OP who is looking for memorization strategies.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:37 PM   #16
Howard Beale
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Being able to remember every folded card is of little to no value?
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:19 AM   #17
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Being able to remember every folded card is of little to no value?
When compared with a more streamlined approach of just noting any two or more of a rank or three of suit yes it is my opinion that it is diminishing returns.

So actually I might be saying it has negative value actually. That is under the premise that the memorization process takes away from something else at the table.

Fwiw I do memorize the rank low cards in high low
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:06 AM   #18
Phat Mack
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by EsmagaSapos View Post
Any information on that though process would be magnificent.
Since you ask about thought processes, I'll give you mine. Please don't be alarmed -- I do everything weird.

As others have mentioned, start with your hand. If you start with an 8s9sTs, you need to look for other spades, you need to look for jacks and sevens, and also you have to look for sixes and queens since making a straight may need them.

That'll get you started and will get the analytic momentum going. Once you get the analysis started, keep it going -- when you're out of a hand, give yourself, or better yet an opponent, an imaginary hand and track the cards it needs.

As you get better at reading your opponents, you'll get better at tracking what they need and you can concentrate on those cards -- it'll make your job easier.

When I was starting out a long time ago, I would try to make it fun by calling the "rounds" to myself as though I were a sports announcer: "A jack completes into a king! What could he have, ladies and gentlemen? Wait, the king folds! Kings were live! There must not be another king in his hand! Can't be suits or high cards, either!" etc. etc. ad nauseum.

I don't really memorize anything, I just note it so I can come back to it later.

An example is if I'm playing high, catch good to a straight or flush draw on 4th, and just know that my opponent is rolled up. I'll forget about suits and concentrate on ranks so I can judge villain's chance of filling up -- I'll review all the 3rd street folds and compare them with what villain catches on 4th, 5th and 6th and so on.

Like Rusty said, some of this stuff is hard to unpack, but if you narrow your focus it gets easier.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:46 PM   #19
Ray Zee
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

what these experienced guys are saying is that after you practice it and pay attention is starts to become second nature. and you will find many spots where knowing the cards out can also infer his hole cards better as well.

also this does add you your win rate, plus while decreasing your loss rate on hands you can
minimize losses on.
a big example is betting two pair on the river, and knowing his cards are dead and getting a big pair to pay you off.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:48 PM   #20
Ray Zee
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

as you can see we all have different ways to remember the cards. and each has to do what works for them and fine tune it over time to get the best results.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:35 AM   #21
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

How I learned to use memorized hole cards during my play:
  1. Create a routine
  2. Practice
  3. Repeat Step Two sometimes adjusting your routine.
----

What do I?

I look at each card as delivered, I do this for hold'em as well (again routine.)
I say to myself, on the first card, "Ace" second, "King", then repeat. but with the suits, "Ace, King, diamond, heart", put a chip on my cards, repeat, "Ace, King, diamond, heart."

Then I look up, and put the cards in order:
2,3,7,T,J
and then the highest recurring suits:
three diamonds, two clubs

Repeat three times.

Then on every street, I say it again, 2,3,7,T,J, three diamonds, two clubs.

After thousands of hands and a few years, what I like to call a learning convergence happened:

It happened in stages:
I'd be playing a hand, and then just after realize, "Ah yes, there were three diamonds dead." This type of "after" thought started getting "closer" to the event, until it happened during the event, "There are three diamonds dead." Then after that, it happened before, meaning I could put them in play a bit stronger, "his range is limited here because three diamonds are dead".

And just kept practicing, over and over.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:05 AM   #22
Ray Zee
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

thats why you got so good so fast joe. you put the effort into your success at poker. and the results show.
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:13 PM   #23
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

My method is similar to Joe's, except that I sort the visible cards before I look at my own hand. My mnemonic routine is reciting the ranks in order in my head like a phone number, with discernible inflection or maybe even melody, so they imprint like a radio jingle. When I have that down I add a tag, "three spades out" or "two hearts, Five of clubs."

Five Eight Eight, Two Three-Hundred... Em-PIRE.
Three Three Seven, Eight Jack Jack King... Four Hearts out

As with Joe, this routine is now automatic, and when I get to the bit about the suits, I can often picture the precise cards when I reiterate the jingle in my head.

I only look at my own cards when I've formed an opinion about what the dead cards mean to the other hands out and my potential hands. If I look at my own cards first I might get attached to them in a spot where I should muck them, and I think it helps to be mechanical in 3rd street action: I try not to pause for an appreciable moment when I look at my hand. If I have to ponder what the exposed cards mean, then I am giving away something about my holding. Ideally my Third street action should be completely inscrutable no matter what my hole cards might be.
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Old Today, 02:26 AM   #24
ChipsAhoya
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Re: Cards Memorizing Process

Steve, you're definitely inscrutable!
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