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Old 03-09-2017, 03:35 AM   #1
Dynasty
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Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

This hand is from the Bellagio 30-60 stud 8 or better game. It runs frequently on Mondays through Thursdays starting in the early afternoon.

The game is being played seven-handed and has been fairly tight so far.

Third Street

Seat 1: 8
Seat 3: Q
Seat 4: (JJ)J
Seat 5: K
Seat 6: A
Seat 7: Q
Seat 8: 3

The 8-seat is the bring-in ($10) with the 3. A mixed game player who often plays bigger calls showing the 8. The Q folds.

I've got J(JJ) and raise.

An overly passive but otherwise solid player calls with a K showing.

An older straight-forward gentleman calls with the A.

The Q and the bring-in 3 fold.

Four players see fourth street with $165 ($35 antes, $10 bring-in, $120 completion/calls) in the pot. (5.5 small bets)

Fourth Street

Seat 1: 8K
Seat 4: (JJ)J4
Seat 5: K2
Seat 6: A2

The A2 and the K8 check to me and I bet my trip Jacks.

The K2 raises and both other players call.

I three-bet my trip Jacks and all three players call.

Four players see fifth street with $525 in the pot (17.5) small bets.

Fifth Street

Seat 1: 8K6
Seat 4: (JJ)J49
Seat 5: K2K
Seat 6: A27

The K2K bets out and is raised by the A27.

The 8K6 folds.

What's my play?
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:58 AM   #2
RichGangi
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Unless I'm missing something, this is an easy fold.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:33 AM   #3
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

My instinct is call, even if other villain has bigger trips the dead king and 2 help our equity a lot, also we have enough non-rolled hands here that folding the top of our range seems really dangerous/costly

Interesting post, looking forward to seeing more responses
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:02 AM   #4
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Gross spot. I think you can fold if that other K wasn't showing
...with the current board I think a call is in order.
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Old 03-09-2017, 06:08 PM   #5
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Question: What does the K's 3rd street call mean? Could it mean a 3-straight or a 3-flush? Down pair? If he has split Ks with the A and Q behind him can he just call there? I know you said he was overly passive, but it seems strange to me.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:42 AM   #6
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Not that many hours in that game but enough to comment. Hi hands tend towards passive play in multiway pots on Third, sharper players use functional raises on Fifth to thin the field with good hi hands. You should call down, Kings-up is likely with another King out and the pot is about as big on this street as it can be. You will get jammed by Kings up, Aces-up and three Kings, but you're doing fine against that range. The low hand doesn't have a straight yet and you have many outs to fill with 4s and 9s live.

Sure, you'll lose the hi side some of the time but you'll win it often enough to get even on that.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:53 AM   #7
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

I acquiesce to the more experienced players. Very interested to hear more....
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:14 AM   #8
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

This is a gross spot to be in, you get that sick feeling in your stomach when villain pairs his door card even with a dead king out. Usually when I get that sick feeling, its my poker instincts telling me that I am beat, and whether I trust or ignore that instinct, its usually me throwing good money after bad only to realize that my instinct was right. Usually 99% of the time. I mean this player has to be a phenom to make this play and then get there with a one outer bluff play. I would hate throwing my hand away, but ignoring that sick feeling is costly.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:31 PM   #9
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Agree with electrical. You can re-evaluate on 7th based on the action.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:45 PM   #10
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

On fifth I'm 3 betting with JJJ, that should get you all the answers you need.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:19 PM   #11
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

To me it comes down to how well do they play? Your hand is literally only rolled up to anyone that can read a hand. A super tough player might try to get you to fold it but more likely they would play straightforwardly against it. This guy seems like the latter and yet he is betting. If he is clueless you can't fold. If he is a secret world beater you can't fold. If he's an ok mid stakes stud player which he probably is you should fold I think.
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Old 03-11-2017, 01:40 AM   #12
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2plapkr View Post
On fifth I'm 3 betting with JJJ, that should get you all the answers you need.
What do you do with that information? Folding for a 4b is exploitable and clearly wrong against a range including so many hands worse than Kings Full. If villain hero folds for the 3b you cap your potential win and are heads-up vs a freerolling low.

Still in camp call down.
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Old 03-11-2017, 01:54 AM   #13
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
To me it comes down to how well do they play? Your hand is literally only rolled up to anyone that can read a hand.
I disagree. (AA), (AJ), (J4) all in hero's range, (J4) depends on playing style but we've all seen worse. Description of villain as overly passive keeps a lot of hands in his range. Low-looking hand can raise Aces-up, Aces w/4-low, occasional trip Sevens and complete lows.

I can think of people whose range is precisely KKK here but not enough to make folding a default when our sideboards are live. If KxK jams Fifth we likely have a problem but we haven't got that far.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:04 AM   #14
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Results:

After some agonizing, I folded on fifth street.

The other two players got to a showdown and split the pot. KKK22 took the high and a 7-low took the other half of the pot.


My thoughts:

When I three-bet on fourth street with J4, I thought I turned my hand face-up. After all, what can I have when I'm jamming against the A2?

When the player on my left raised on fourth street, I thought he was strong enough to beat a pair of Aces for high. He was passive enough not to play a lone pair of Kings aggressively against possible Aces (or a four-low including an Ace). So, I thought I had my customer if somebody made a low and we jammed the expensive streets.

When the King fell on fifth street and he bet out, I couldn't fathom not being behind. I was only considering whether I can chase against KKK2x or 222KK. But, either hand is going to know it's way ahead and jam with the low-hand. So, it seemed certain to me that every street was going five bets to the river. Folding immediately seemed a cheap way out of the hand.

It felt weird folding what is literally the best hand I can possibly have and which is usually a monster holding.


After the hand, the Kings-full player started thinking aloud and saying he probably should have just checked and called to keep me in the pot.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:42 PM   #15
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Results:

After the hand, the Kings-full player started thinking aloud and saying he probably should have just checked and called to keep me in the pot.
Paired door cards are such scary things that not betting them can be a bigger sell-out than jamming.
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:49 PM   #16
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Surprised no one mentioned that we were only chasing half the pot and even if the other guy did not have us beat the low hand might also have high draws as well. Seems like an easy fold
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:23 PM   #17
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Interesting hand.

Which hands people put a player on when he raises with a Jack showing on 3rd street having K,A and Q to act behind?
Probably just two.
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Old 03-12-2017, 02:34 AM   #18
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

i'd just bet/call 4th and plan to raise 5th.
i fold 5th.
i don't see how dude is supposed to ever have k's up on 5th. 2 q's dead and he didn't raise 3rd, so aa can be discounted. you're hoping he has TT. in a tight game i'd expect to never see that hand when a j raises into a k and an ace vs 2 lo cards. just combo-wise he has way more kx's than he does aa, qq, tt and 99 aside from the unlikelyhood of those hands to begin with.
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Old 03-12-2017, 04:25 AM   #19
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveistheman84 View Post
i'd just bet/call 4th and plan to raise 5th.
i fold 5th.
i don't see how dude is supposed to ever have k's up on 5th. 2 q's dead and he didn't raise 3rd, so aa can be discounted. you're hoping he has TT. in a tight game i'd expect to never see that hand when a j raises into a k and an ace vs 2 lo cards. just combo-wise he has way more kx's than he does aa, qq, tt and 99 aside from the unlikelyhood of those hands to begin with.
+1
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Old 03-12-2017, 04:36 AM   #20
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Results:

After some agonizing, I folded on fifth street.

The other two players got to a showdown and split the pot. KKK22 took the high and a 7-low took the other half of the pot.


My thoughts:

When I three-bet on fourth street with J4, I thought I turned my hand face-up. After all, what can I have when I'm jamming against the A2?

When the player on my left raised on fourth street, I thought he was strong enough to beat a pair of Aces for high. He was passive enough not to play a lone pair of Kings aggressively against possible Aces (or a four-low including an Ace). So, I thought I had my customer if somebody made a low and we jammed the expensive streets.

When the King fell on fifth street and he bet out, I couldn't fathom not being behind. I was only considering whether I can chase against KKK2x or 222KK. But, either hand is going to know it's way ahead and jam with the low-hand. So, it seemed certain to me that every street was going five bets to the river. Folding immediately seemed a cheap way out of the hand.

It felt weird folding what is literally the best hand I can possibly have and which is usually a monster holding.


After the hand, the Kings-full player started thinking aloud and saying he probably should have just checked and called to keep me in the pot.
I don't mind turning my hand face up in a large multiway pot by just betting for value. Some players are drawing, some can't hand read, and some are just straight up bad. That's enough of an excuse to jam imo.

You can't even chase against 222kk when 5 bets are going in the next 2 streets where you're drawing for only half. Folding isn't even close here.

As for the 3rd bolded point, it's not like villain knew you were rolled up and the a27 guy binked some rough low. There's no way he foresaw the a27 guy raising on 5th and you folding on 5th. There's also no way he'd all of a sudden donk check after hitting the ginnest card in the deck on 5th. Villain is silly to think there is a possibility of him checking on 5th. It was just unfortunate you played ur hand well by folding instead of getting caught up calling 10 bets to the river.

Last edited by tiger415; 03-12-2017 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 03-12-2017, 04:59 AM   #21
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
Not that many hours in that game but enough to comment. Hi hands tend towards passive play in multiway pots on Third, sharper players use functional raises on Fifth to thin the field with good hi hands. You should call down, Kings-up is likely with another King out and the pot is about as big on this street as it can be. You will get jammed by Kings up, Aces-up and three Kings, but you're doing fine against that range. The low hand doesn't have a straight yet and you have many outs to fill with 4s and 9s live.

Sure, you'll lose the hi side some of the time but you'll win it often enough to get even on that.
i think ur one of the few ppl who would have kings in this spot
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Old 03-12-2017, 04:19 PM   #22
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Results:

After the hand, the Kings-full player started thinking aloud and saying he probably should have just checked and called to keep me in the pot.
That's because most players don't have the hand reading skills and never consider folding in this spot. I wonder if this was David Singer?
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:44 PM   #23
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

It wasn't David. He was a tourist.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:57 PM   #24
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

I don't see how an "overly passive but solid older man" can't have (TT)K or (AA)K in his range?
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:52 AM   #25
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Re: Bellagio 30-60 Stud/8: Rolled Jacks Build a Pot and Get Scared

IMO:
it's horrible but for him to raise 4th street after just cautiously calling 3rd, it's got to mean he improved, and then 5th is definitely bad news.

the type of guy who doesn't 2-b kings vs a jack completion is not the type of guy who has one pair when raising 4th street in a multiway pot. someone who doesn't play their big pairs with any aggression is the sort of guy who wants to "see how it develops" as cheaply as possible and then fold by 5th unimproved.

from that, you can only deduce you're beat, because he saw how it developed, and it developed into kings full and he behaved accordingly

great fold.

disclaimer: never played higher than 10/20 online, but i think i could beat 30/60 live if i had the money and money is the only reason i'm not in vegas/the bike playing 75/150
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