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Old 04-26-2017, 11:58 PM   #1
LUCIUS VARENUS
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7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

I recently have built up a little $595 bankroll on PokerStars and have decided to stop playing H/L cash games. Every time I ever played it, I always noticed the 7 Card Stud High micro and low stakes players were very weak competition who played far too loosely. So I decided for the foreseeable future, I will try to ply my trade playing 7CS cash games. I recently ordered 7CS4AP so I'm looking forward to getting my teeth into that.

Normally I am quite aggressive on third street, doing all the usual plays, I seldom limp, I complete the highest upcard vs weak board, barrel 4th/5th if they brick, 2b as resteal, 2b/3b/4b any hand i think is ahead etc, and this works well for me in the late stages of tournaments and games with tight players. The trouble is, these moves aren't really working in this game, so I have to be much more selective.

It seems like stealing when the ante is quite small and the players are very loose is a bad proposition. From my experience, I'd say more than 70% of my steal attempts fail, and I usually end up compounding the error trying to barrel people off either airball/bad drawing hands they should've folded yesterday or their hero call down type hands like small pairs. I mean, there's a lot of players I've encountered so far who will call a completion with any 3 cards on 3rd street and call down even multiple bets on one street trying to get to the river trying to hit one pair. They happen to probably be calling mathematically correctly those times I have no pair, but still!

So question is, exactly what sort of situations am I really looking for where it is worth it to steal in these games, because it seems like it just isn't really worth it right now? How frequently do I need to attempt to steal to stay profitable in the game with these conditions?

Sometimes I try to tighten up so much that when I win a pot, all the profit is drained waiting for the next good situation that comes up! On the other hand, if I get a bunch of good spots that come up and run good on those hands, I do a lot better in the session than when I try to outmuscle people and run them over.

FWIW I'm talking about $0.50/$1. I'll move up to $1/$2 once I feel like I've conquered this level.

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-27-2017 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:18 AM   #2
monikrazy
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

what does 2b as resteal mean?

Also it sounds like you are raising most face cards vs a low card late position?

From what I'm reading so far it sounds like we can help you steal more effectively by eliminating certain hands you have been trying to steal with (like stud hi steals?) And also by adjusting your behavior/expectations/equity estimates based on dead cards

also, even though it is not recommended for more serious games, you may want to experiment with (unbalanced) limp-stealing

If you record a session on video I will give analysis on that
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:17 AM   #3
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

Ante seems super low. Re-read TOP on adjusting to the antes. I don't play stud hi very often in my live rotation game, but it seems like you may be getting tilted by other player's bad play, and over-adjusting. The antes aren't all that worth stealing, so definately not like bare-ace stealing. I'd want three to a straight (one-and-a-half missing card at most), the higher the better, w liveish pair draws three pictures to a straight with one gap (pure live hands only w one gap). Three to a suit (one missing suit, also big card showing helps). And, wired pair with big card if you absolutely MUST re-steal (you need at least some show down value in game described). You also can use ProPokerTools to estimate range v range.

Also, it seems like you're focusing on the weakest player, but what does the average player play like in this game? And, just got my copy of the same book, and need to re-read at some point.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 04-27-2017 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:59 AM   #4
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

I think limping with the suited, and the straight hands, and either bluffing, or playing for free cards is also fine. I would tend towards going for free cards in the low limit games, as it seems like this group is mostly going to be elderly, and free cards can get a lot of equity, rather than the agro spoiled teens in hold'em. Though this perhaps is not true online. I would consider checking for more free cards in some of these games as the pot is small, and this is a frequent leak in some of the softer stud hi games that are low limit.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:09 AM   #5
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

What exactly is the ante in these games?
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:42 AM   #6
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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What exactly is the ante in these games?
8 cents.

Big bet is $1.

Kick a buck
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:55 AM   #7
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

That's not really such a small ante then. It's proportionately a little larger than the standard $3 ante for a live 20/40 game. And a lot larger than standard for smaller live games ($1 for 10/20, 50 cents for 5/10).
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:26 AM   #8
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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That's not really such a small ante then. It's proportionately a little larger than the standard $3 ante for a live 20/40 game. And a lot larger than standard for smaller live games ($1 for 10/20, 50 cents for 5/10).
2/25ths is 1/12.5ths but fractions aren't decimalised
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:01 PM   #9
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
2/25ths is 1/12.5ths but fractions aren't decimalised
Don't know why you decided to explain this while quoting my last post. Are you meaning to dispute what I said?

This really doesn't seem like a small ante.
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Old 05-06-2017, 06:03 PM   #10
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

It is not a small ante. It's about 1/6 the small bet. Though most 20/40 games I've seen use a $5 ante and play biggish.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:42 AM   #11
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

I have only ever seen a $5 ante in a 20/40 game in Scottsdale. Every other one I have ever seen was $3. It was even $3 when that same game used to be in Fountain Hills.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:40 AM   #12
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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It is not a small ante. It's about 1/6 the small bet. Though most 20/40 games I've seen use a $5 ante and play biggish.
Hi Death Donkey:

The $20-$40 games in Las Vegas used a $3ante. $30-$60 was $5. $40-$80 was usually $10 but sometimes $5. Both forms of the $40-$80 were terrible games. $75-$150 was $15.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:17 AM   #13
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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$40-$80 was usually $10 but sometimes $5. Both forms of the $40-$80 were terrible games.
Why do you say this?
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:51 AM   #14
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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Hi Death Donkey:

The $20-$40 games in Las Vegas used a $3ante. $30-$60 was $5. $40-$80 was usually $10 but sometimes $5. Both forms of the $40-$80 were terrible games. $75-$150 was $15.

Best wishes,
Mason
The 20/40 mixed at WSOP uses $5 ante / $5 bring in for all stud games...

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Old 07-02-2017, 04:28 AM   #15
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

Do you know any other place to play 7 stud apart from PokerStars?
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:58 PM   #16
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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Do you know any other place to play 7 stud apart from PokerStars?
Americas Cardroom (ACR) spreads stud hi and hi/lo cash (but no razz as much as we ask for it and no tournaments other than occasional one-offs and even those only recently.) Action is typically at very soft micros or high stakes that I've never played. Only available on Windows client, not Mac client. Not much action between 2/4 and 10/20 or 20/40.

Carbon I think has all the HORSE games but I don't play there.

SwCPoker (formerly Seals with Clubs) spreads the most games of any site including all three traditional forms of stud. Unfortunately no superstud yet but we've asked for it and if any site is going to spread it, it'll be this one.
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:59 PM   #17
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Re: 7 Card Stud - 2/25ths ante, 20% bring and stealing

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That's not really such a small ante then. It's proportionately a little larger than the standard $3 ante for a live 20/40 game. And a lot larger than standard for smaller live games ($1 for 10/20, 50 cents for 5/10).
The only live stud game I've ever played is a $5/$10 with $1 ante, $2 bring in. I'm happy with this structure, never heard complaints.

I've also heard of games played with the following structure: 1 chip ante, 2 chip bring in, 4 chip small bet, 8 chip big bet (and played it a bit in home games and thought nothing bad of it).

Generally I'm going to vote for bigger antes, more action, more hands. Good for the game in general.
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