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Old 06-27-2010, 09:11 PM   #1
WhiteRabbito
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3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

I am still quite new to the FT razz scene so i don't quite know who's who. thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 Limit Razz $0.50 Ante - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com


3rd Street: (1.333 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx Q____Seat 1 calls
Seat 2: xx xx K____Seat 2 brings in for $1____Seat 2 folds
Hero: 3 8 4___Hero completes
Seat 4: xx xx K____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx T____Seat 6 folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7____Seat 7 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (3.667 SB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q A____Seat 1 raises
Hero: 3 8 4 J___Hero bets___Hero calls

5th Street: (3.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q A 2____Seat 1 raises
Hero: 3 8 4 J 7___Hero bets___Hero calls

6th Street: (7.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q A 2 9____Seat 1 calls
Hero: 3 8 4 J 7 8___Hero bets

7th Street: (9.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q A 2 9 xx____Seat 1 raises
Hero: 3 8 4 J 7 8 5___Hero bets___Hero ??
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:19 PM   #2
camz2895
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

i really don't like the lead on 6th as you have played the hand passively throughout and a good villain will pick up on it and usually raise...as for 7th; idk...it's obv villain is on a wheel draw but you did improve, and he's calling with his 9 every time, so it's really tough btw bet or c/c
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:36 PM   #3
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

you probably should have checked 6th. and let him bet his nine on 7th for value at you so you dont have to lose two bets on the end when beat.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:40 PM   #4
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
you probably should have checked 6th. and let him bet his nine on 7th for value at you so you dont have to lose two bets on the end when beat.
obv villain is a bit of a maniac, but betting a 9 for value on 7th after raising 4th and 5th is just crazy. Hero should be able to snap fold worse than an 8. However, villain should be paying off a huge % of the time with a 9 low when hero bets since it's a big pot and hero played it passively when raised. With his rough 8 low, hero is a 3:1 favorite to have the best hand at showdown so c/c would be a crime.
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:14 PM   #5
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

i'm trying to figure out how you figured hero is a 3:1 fav at shodown ?

i ran this sim but it's obv wrong
345788j 91.54% 549,213 0
(6-6-)a29q* 8.46% 50,787 0

Last edited by camz2895; 06-29-2010 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 06-29-2010, 03:53 PM   #6
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

well if he could never bet his nine then hero would always fold his eight if he made it.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:01 PM   #7
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

you need to at least wrap the A with the parens unless you think he could have an A down for a pair. I still get like 87 or 88% though...

Edit: something is wrong here. Check out this link, where villain should have the nuts a lot, but it says we're a 4:1 favorite
http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...7-6-a2%299q%2A
I can't find a single case that's as bad as the range case, so I don't see how the whole range could be so bad for villain.

Last edited by RustyBrooks; 06-29-2010 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:30 PM   #8
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
well if he could never bet his nine then hero would always fold his eight if he made it.
Theoretically true, but I don't usually count on my opponents to do the right thing. Especially getting 11:1 on a call. Of course, villain could bet it as bluff instead of a value bet, if he thought hero was capable of folding his 8 if he made it. It wouldn't have to work very often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
you need to at least wrap the A with the parens unless you think he could have an A down for a pair. I still get like 87 or 88% though...

Edit: something is wrong here. Check out this link, where villain should have the nuts a lot, but it says we're a 4:1 favorite
http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...7-6-a2%299q%2A
I can't find a single case that's as bad as the range case, so I don't see how the whole range could be so bad for villain.
This is the sim I ran:
ProPokerTools Razz Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: qk7t73
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
345788j73.39% 440,3120
(5-5-a2)9q*26.61% 159,6880

Obv villain's range is somewhat debatable (but hero does in fact have two 8's, not an 8 and a 9). I guess he could also have paired the 2 and still raised 5th, but I'm inclined to believe he made a wheel draw there.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:38 PM   #9
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Yeah I entered 89 accidentally. But I still don't understand the results I got. Try each individual hand in the range, and you get less than 80% equity for hero on each one, yet it comes up with an average of 80%. It's either including some hand in the range it shouldn't, or I'm missing some, but I don't see how.

Range is (7-6-A2)
34 66.6
35 66.65
36 69.73
37 60.48
45 69.7
46 72.76
47 63.69
56 72.7
57 63.54
67 75.78

This can't possibly average to 80.3 which is what it gives for the whole range.

In youur 5-5- case with 88 and not 98, you have
34 69.66
35 69.68
45 72.77
again all of these are under the reported average for 5- 5- which is 73.46

I'm going to page bachfan and see if he can tell me what's up
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:48 PM   #10
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
Yeah I entered 89 accidentally. But I still don't understand the results I got. Try each individual hand in the range, and you get less than 80% equity for hero on each one, yet it comes up with an average of 80%. It's either including some hand in the range it shouldn't, or I'm missing some, but I don't see how.

Range is (7-6-A2)
34 66.6
35 66.65
36 69.73
37 60.48
45 69.7
46 72.76
47 63.69
56 72.7
57 63.54
67 75.78

This can't possibly average to 80.3 which is what it gives for the whole range.

In youur 5-5- case with 88 and not 98, you have
34 69.66
35 69.68
45 72.77
again all of these are under the reported average for 5- 5- which is 73.46

I'm going to page bachfan and see if he can tell me what's up
excellent point. My standalone razz calc gives me 71% equity for my range, which looks a lot more reasonable. Turn on the bach signal and get this looked into!

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Old 06-29-2010, 06:06 PM   #11
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

I'll take a look at this

- bachfan, ppt guy
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:50 PM   #12
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

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Old 07-01-2010, 04:21 PM   #13
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

I have confirmed this is a bug. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, guys. The bug affects sims with seven cards specified where a hand has a range of hands for both the first two down cards and the final downcard.

Examples of affected hands:

(9-9-8)765*
5-4-K765*

Examples of unaffected hands
(7-7-)789J
9876JT*
235699T

I ran some statistical tests, and have confirmed that the distribution of hands is not correct. Blasted hand distributions! In a nutshell, for the affected hands, the last card is pairing more often than it should. I know how to fix the hand distro algorithm, now I just need to find time to do it.
I'll post here and on twitter when it's fixed. Sorry for the bad numbers - this kind of bug makes me physically ill.

- bachfan, PPT dude
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:29 PM   #14
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachfan View Post
I have confirmed this is a bug. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, guys. The bug affects sims with seven cards specified where a hand has a range of hands for both the first two down cards and the final downcard.

Examples of affected hands:

(9-9-8)765*
5-4-K765*

Examples of unaffected hands
(7-7-)789J
9876JT*
235699T

I ran some statistical tests, and have confirmed that the distribution of hands is not correct. Blasted hand distributions! In a nutshell, for the affected hands, the last card is pairing more often than it should. I know how to fix the hand distro algorithm, now I just need to find time to do it.
I'll post here and on twitter when it's fixed. Sorry for the bad numbers - this kind of bug makes me physically ill.

- bachfan, PPT dude
top notch customer service imo
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:11 PM   #15
ChipsAhoya
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

wow, awesome! can we take up a collection for him or something?
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:21 AM   #16
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

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Originally Posted by ChipsAhoya View Post
wow, awesome! can we take up a collection for him or something?
yes. Note: I am not affiliated with PPT in any way, and have donated before.
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:45 AM   #17
RustyBrooks
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

That link didn't work for me
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:03 PM   #18
ChipsAhoya
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial View Post
yes. Note: I am not affiliated with PPT in any way, and have donated before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
That link didn't work for me
FFS Dan we want DIRECTIONS to the site not a link...
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:27 PM   #19
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
That link didn't work for me
meh it didn't work for me either this time.

Directions: go to the PPT site. Look for a clickable button near the bottom of the page with the name of the online money xfer company shown in the link. Left click on it.
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Old 07-03-2010, 04:41 PM   #20
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Donations are always appreciated, thanks guys. Already received one thanks to this thread.

Just got back from a whirlwind vegas tour - nice to meet up with some of you forum regulars! I will get to cracking this bug once the holiday insanity has died down a bit and I have some peace and quiet.

- bachfan
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:00 PM   #21
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Fixed!

Found some time during my boy's nap-time to squash this bug. Let me know if the numbers match your expectations now (I tested a few scenarios and things appear to be correct).

- bachfan
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:55 PM   #22
ChipsAhoya
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

is PPT down? I haven't been able to get on today...
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:02 PM   #23
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

It was very sluggish for me earlier today, thought it was just me. I could enter hands but it often didn't finish sims.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:57 PM   #24
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Server got grumpy - had to restart - should be happy now.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:24 AM   #25
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Re: 3/6 Razz - Did I play this poorly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachfan View Post
Server was rubbing donations on its titt1es - had to restart - should be happy now.
FYP
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