I say smooth call both 4 and 5th street. I see no reason to knock out seat 1 and 8. You almost banking on hit your draw. Don’t think raise to knock out player will do any good. There is a very good chance that seat 3 is going all the way to show down and you are drawing. Let 1 and 8 call put extra money in the pot. And you do not reopen the betting. I am worried if hero raise on 5th street, say seat 1 and 8 fold and seat 3 three bets, hero will be in worse position compare to smooth call and bring one additional player who is drawing thin.

i get in as much as possible on 3rd.

^ Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems bad.

Yeah it seems like we want to be pulling and getting tons of $ in if we hit on 4th in good relative position.

Yeah, I retract that one.

Who's folding on 3rd?

Seems like he just wants to get more money in on 3rd, not push anyone out.

With only one diamond out and possibly live straight cards why not

I'm not folding, LDO. Def not jamming though.
This. Jamming 4th if I catch well.

No, jdr is saying that you should be pulling with this hand so I responded with "who's folding?"

I don't mind jamming on 3rd, haven't ran equities but I like potential with live diamonds and nines. Ties big pairs onto their hands. Potential free card on 4th if you brick. Balances for times you have aces in hole or rolled up. All good stuff.

Call on 3rd is fine too, but putting more money in on 3rd is certainly not bad imo

The pot is suppose to start really small, and wind-up really big to maximize implied odds. So jamming 3rd only works if you're in relative position (same with 4th). If the pot starts really small, and ends really small, it's a huge mistake. It's not even a small mistake to jam here.

UNLESS you have fold-equity, and can rep AA|D or DD|D and get them to fold on a later street by mis-understanding your hand. But, I don't know how useful that tactic is here, and if there are better candidates like a couple combos of DA|D suited ace. So, I think that would be your 3rd street semi-bluff (though not sure on the frequency). But maybe not. If you do it with your super highly correlated diamonds, and you hit your D (or A) for example, they're going to really misread you.

(D = door card, btw)

Sorry not following all of this, so you don't like the 3rd street reraise? Lol

Don't think it's worthy of extensive research or discussion. Just didnt understanding anyone considering it to be a bad play. Again I haven't run the equities but with a live flush and straight cards it might be pure value on 3rd street

But there are other advantages to the extra action as well. When two plays are close I tend to put in the action

Sorry, I'll try to add clarity to my thoughts.

First, I don't play stud hi very often. So I don't have loads of experience.

Second, what I understand is that you want the pot to turn into a mountain from small antes. It seems that the best way to do this is to call on third with almost all of your flush draws so not to exclude the guy behind you. But, if you re-raise here with none of your flush draws, then your range when you re-raise is too narrow, so it's a matter of striking a balance. So, perhaps to strike that balance you should raise a small percentage of your flush draws, and personally I like the livest cards, and the highly coordinated ones to re-raise with in this spot. If you always have AA or rolled-up then that's not good. Also, you can potentially earn a free card.

add: Basically what you said above. Raise for balance. Except, I'm thinking about just betting the whole way through seventh if you catch bad on 4th, and 5th.

I would think if you feel you need to balance here by raising flush draws sometimes here, it would be better to do it with big cards, maybe especially with an ace up.

Well in this case you also have some semblance of a straight draw that is also adding value

Stud in general isn't really a "pulling game". Everyone has indendent boards. Knocking out a player or two is never a bad thing. Perhaps you end up winning with two pair because you did this.

A call is fine, by no means am I saying you must raise. I just disagreed with people who thought it was as bad. Why?

Anyhow, I'm abit tighter in my starting standards than the other players. So if its close I like to put in the action

Agree w/ this, but you need to balance each door card, and what you do the times you have a K,Q,J,T-2 up. In particular this one is T vs K,Q w/ player behind (whether to raise and knock him out, or call and let him in... I think raise to balance my T door cards).

Thanks for your reply.

Well, I think the factors lean towards raising.

Benefits
1. You get two more bets in from the K or Q most of the time with a hand w/ equity. (need to use PPT though)

a. Your straight with a hole is live
b. Your flush has one diamond out only
c. Your two pair draw is somewhat live (8h is gone)

2. You can opt for a free card
3. Your two pair draw is more likely to be good (as mentioned by Scotch).
4. You can perhaps represent aces in the hole or TTT by sticking in the third. (very depending on playing strategy, and opponents)

Drawbacks
1. You may get re-raised and be up against a monster.
2. You knock out a player who might otherwise voluntarily put money in the pot.

Yup nice summary. Don't know how often you get re-raised by a pair of kings and trip kings is very rare. But if it happens and the queen gets knocked out I don't consider it a travesty. You add the dead money to the pot and you probably have position on the king for the remainder of the hand and if you don't it means you improved.

Any diamond,6,J,9,A,7,8,T improves your hand on 4th.

If you overdo the re-raise with three to a suit, then I suspect split kings are going to be able to re-raise you a lot to knock out the Q. I definitely wouldn't raise if there wasn't the added straight potential, and livish cards.

That read would take awhile to form but I'm only re-raising here due to the quality of the draw. Having an ace like you mentioned earlier is another good reason as it is an overcard. Just call with normal flush draws, fold if more than two of your suit out.

Like many cases in Stud your actions are randomized nicely by the situation so you don't really have to worry about balance imo

why all this talk of "knocking players out"? how is that relevant?

When there are fewer players in the pot, you have a better chance to win. Especially important if you are the player starting with a big pair, as opposed to the player starting with a drawing hand.

ohhh. ya ok...but not relevant for the posted hh...right?

Yes, it is relevant. The context was that if the guy with the K up suspects you often have a drawing hand here, he will reraise and try to force out the guy with the Q up. That could be bad for you as your hand is probably better off playing against more players.