thank you very much for the info. now I'm a bit less depressed about moving to texas since I can play poker somewhere

I thought this was correct? 2nd guy would have to raise to 32 to make a legal raise. Someone explain this rule to me it confuses me.

If you haven't acted yet, you can bet whatever you want.

The player that made it $16 would only be able to call the allin player. Anybody that has yet to act can raise whatever they want.

actually, the all in player's raise ($8) was more than half the original raise ($14), so i think that anyone, including the original raiser, has the option to reraise

The 50% or more rule you are thinking of is a limit rule.

If you are playing NL and put in 50% or more of a raise and you are NOT all in, you HAVE to add enough for a min raise.

IE: Chris Moneymaker, 2 to 3 years ago in the Main Event WSOP, the bet he is facing is $4000T. He puts in $6000T. The Dealer makes him add $2000T to make it a min raise.

If you are playing Limit and go all in for less than a full raise but it is 50% or more of a raise, then it is treated as a raise. it will re open betting for players who have already acted.

If you are playing either game and go all in for less than 50% of a raise, it is just a call, not a raise and it does not reopen betting for anyone WHO HAS NOT ACTED YET.

I don't agree with the ruling here, even though I did make a huge mistake.

All the money goes in, and the guy shows TT. I muck my cards since I missed my flush. The girl next to me said, you have 56, you have a straight. I pull my cards back and show them face up to try and claim the pot for the straight.

There was a card protector sitting half way on the muck and half way off the muck. My cards just barely leaned against the card protector, not touching any cards in the muck. As far as I'm concerned with the rules at winstar, if the cards are clearly identifiable and they didn't get scooped into the muck, the cards are live. I've seen this situation before and that was the ruling.

So the first floor came over and ruled my cards live. The guy with TT was arguing over it and said he wasn't going to pay up so the second floor came over, kennan, and ruled my hand dead.

Here's the kicker. I asked him, if I threw my cards toward the muck like I did, and pulled it back from the muck like I did without the girl saying anything, would my hand be live? He said yes, the reason why my hand is dead is because there's only one player to a hand. By the girl telling me I had a straight, she killed my hand.

You guys can disregard the above. I agree with the ruling.

while i agree that if the cards hit the muck the hand is dead,

i don't feel that the one player per hand rule should have anything to do with the ruling. the hand has played out, and we are at showdown

i also thought that if someone were to IWTSTH, that your hand would be considered live. maybe i am wrong though DG?

I'll be heading up there tonight after work, probably get on the 1-2 tables around 2 am. Any 2+2 ers gonna be up there? I'd like to put some faces to these posts.

Seat 1 table 2 but I'll be gone before 2am.

At WinStar and most places. if the presumptive winner of a hand asks to see the other players cards, that hand is still live and if the "loser" has the best hand, it wins the pot.

If anyone else asks to see that hand, it's dead.

Theoretical hand in NL, Player 1 raises to 15, Player 2 goes all in for 20, Player 3 calls the 20, Action is back on player 1, Can he go all in for 200?

No. The all in by player 2 was not a legal raise, so player 1 can just call. If player 3 had raised, then player 1 would be able to raise.

I'm in Keller, TX. Would anybody want to carpool sometime? It's getting expensive to drive up there multiple times each week. If anybody would like to carpool, let me know. I would like to stay at the Winstar for many hours each time, at least 6-8. Any takers?

I live in downtown FW and don't drive, so I would be interested in that possibility. I usually take the bus when I go, and it is a good deal for me. But splitting gas with someone and being able to go at different times is appealing also. PM me and we'll discuss schedules and such

also, I can usually meet you close to Keller if you obv do not want to drive all the way to downtown

Had something similar happen last night. Get to the river and the guy betting the whole way in the HJ checks. The CO checks back. The HJ then says you have a straight? The CO says no and says I have two pair. The CO flips his hand over and shows two pair. The HJ nods his head up and down and throws his cards face down over the betting line towards the dealer. Two seconds pass and the dealer scoops the cards and literally just before they are pushed into the muck by the dealer (they are a 1/4" away from the muck) the HJ says "Wait." I have a straight. The HJ then says he meant to flip his cards up but then stayed face down (this was mostly a lie as it was obvious HJ meant to muck but then realized he had a one card straight). The floor was called and said because the cards are easily identifiable the hand was still live and the HJ won the pot.

On another note I had another bad dealer mistake at Winstar again. It seems each time I am there there is at least one big mistake each session. In this case the there were seven players in the hand and one person checked on the flop. One player was cutting out chips behind the line and we were all watching him do this. The player took about 20 seconds to find the right amount and then the dealer just dealt the turn before anything happened (no bets, no checks). Everyone at the table said what!? The dealer then said everyone (six people who had not acted) all checked. The dealer claimed everyone checked with their hand. lol. It was obvious the dealer was spacing off and then woke up and thought the table was waiting on him so he dealt the next card. (I find this happens a lot at Winstar--dealers just stare off into space because they are bored and miss action and don't know where the button is or what is going on.) What happened next was the big error.

Someone in seat nine then said the premature exposed turn card needs to be shuffled back into the stub because it came out. (there was no action on the turn card yet). The dealer refused. The dealer then told the person who was cutting out the chips they can bet now. Seat nine said started arguing with the dealer saying that's not right and the floor needs to be called. The dealer refused to call the floor and now told seat nine their only option was to call the bet the dealer forced the other player to make or fold. The dealer actually said "I'm not calling the floor for something stupid like this" and raised his voice to seat nine saying call or fold, call or fold. It became apparent that the dealer did not want to call the floor because he would get in trouble for not paying attention to the game and wanted to cover his ass rather than do things the right way.

Winstar is a nice play to play but I can honestly say they have the worst dealers I have ever seen in any casino. I play there a few times a week now and I see an error like this once per 5-6 hours. And there are always two occasions where a dealer doesn't know where the button is each time too. I really wish the management would have a few more classes for the dealers to bring them up to par. I've played in lots of casinos across the US and I've never run into as many problems as I do here. You have to be watching the dealer all the time because of this.

I was there yesterday and something similar happened to what is currently being discussed. The hand went something like this, two guys were in the hand till the river. bb checks, button bets, bb calls. Button then says "one ace".

The board was something like A8632. BB nods and barely pushes his cards across the betting line face down. The button then turns over 89, for a pair of 8's. The BB then grabs his cards bc he's stunned that the button didnt have "one ace" in his HAND for a pair of aces and then proceeds to turn over QQ for the winning hand.

The jackass on the button was clearly shooting an angle because he asked the dealer if he was going to muck the BB's cards and then turns over his 89. THis guy wanted the other guys cards in the muck bc he knew he was beat and that was the only way he could win. He goes ballistic after the guy turns over the QQ to beat his 89. He starts to berate the dealer saying he f*#$d him out of that pot bc he didnt muck the other guys cards quick enough.

I understand that the BB should have turned his cards face up and let the cards speak, but if it wasnt for the asshat on the button shooting an angle, he would have turned them up. Both players are at fault, but what tilts me so much is the angle this guy was trying to shoot and then gets angry when it doesnt work. **** like this is totally unethical and not good for the integrity of the game.

Thoughts?

I am seeing more of this lately too. (Not necessarily at Winstar, but just in general). I see it a lot when the board is paired and the player calls out two pair without showing anything. They are counting on the other player to believe that they have the nuts. 99% of the time when they do this they have the pair on the board and match the lowest card on the board for the second pair. I always just say "which two pair do you have" followed by "show me". I frequently just say "show me the winner/show me the ace" and it solves most of these issues.

In your case I would call the guy out for trying to angleshoot. Make a big deal about it so everyone at the table knows. Say something like "from now on I am going to make you show me both of your cards before I fold". That way the rest of the table will do the same. And if you are not in the hand and he calls out his hand again say out loud to the table "make sure he shows you the winning hand before you fold." You will probably start an argument for one player to a hand but it will be remembered by the rest of the table. This will take away any edge and people will remember him for doing this.

Maybe I am just far from shy, but as soon as the dealer said that he would not call the floor, *I* would have raised my hand an yelled our "FLOOR TABLE xx". I promise you, they will come whether you call or the dealer calls as I have done it before. (though I did it because the Floor didn't hear the dealer, not because the dealer refused to call them. none the less, the floor person responded to my voice and walked over.)

Hard to believe this happened, wow.

Which dealer was this? If you don't know their name, could you describe them? I am so curious who it was.

African-American gentleman, 30's.

That right there sums it up - makes ZERO sense. You tabled the best hand - cards speak. Do you & the girl get a warning about one player to a hand? Sure. Do you get the pot? Well, did you table the best hand? Yes - so how can you not get the pot?

Ruling makes no sense - suddenly one player to a hand somehow trumps cards speak? If someone comments on your hand they can kill it? Wow, that could never be abused could it?

And what did that trashcan do to you?

while i generally agree with you on this, illeisure, I do see the other side.

using one player to a hand to kill a hand where someone comments on your hand after you throw it in face down can NOT be abused if you just show your damn cards. and if we DON'T kill the hand for that, that can be abused, I can just show my buddy next to me my hand every time and tell him to let me know if I ever miss anything. Then I can muck face down at every showdown, and he will help me make sure I never miss anything, and will tell me when I need to flip my cards up.

I do think the only possible time to kill the hand for this is after the player has already thrown the cards in face down. It WOULD be too easily abused by, for example, I am sitting next to a guy I hate, there is a bet and a call on the river and 4 spades on board. I immediately look at him and say "SHOW YOUR HAND IF YOU HAVE A SPADE!" and they kill his hand for it.

The difference is that player could easily make the decision himself, whereas the player who threw in face down already made a decision and 99% of the time will not make a different decision without intervention. And you can protect yourself 100% of the time, by simply showing your cards at showdown OR not showing your neighbor your cards.