Ive sat in the 1/3 plo half a dozen times. Im usually wrapped up playing on plo bovada and forgo the drive to FK. If the plo stays steady I will definitely increase my time there. Ive played plenty of 1/2 and 2/5 there though. I always wear a hat the reads wizard on the front.

Rounders (Woodys) will open at 1100, not 1000 on Monday, Labor Day.

They also will only have 1 charity for each day ... SO ... no Monday RxR at night and there will be no shutdown at 440 like normally would be.

You never know with a holiday, but I would assume that it will either be very dead or very busy.

There has been very good action from about 1100 to 230ish lately and then it just depends on who stays and who fills in. GL

What do you look for when you choose a poker room? Two usual answers are good dealers and a friendly atmosphere. I'm going to throw out some other ideas that aren't often mentioned.

What I look for, in no particular order:

Starting on time. If there are 20 players ready to go, a tournament scheduled for 1800 should start at 1800, not 1805 or 1815. When I show up on time I should be rewarded with the chance to play more hands than the players that show up late.

Information. Every room should have a web site that includes a calendar or list of all tournaments and it should be updated on a regular basis. Tournament information ideally would include tournament start times, buy-ins, starting times and schedule of blinds and antes.* The web site should also include a list of all holidays when the room will be closed.

Overhead screen. This should also be updated regularly. I played a tournament recently where all of the numbers were showing zeros after 90 minutes of play. What is the point of having that screen if you're not going to update it?

Driving and other expenses. A room might have everything I'm looking for, but if the room is in Detroit or Marquette I'm not playing unless I happen to already be in that area. Other expenses matter as well--I still don't know why I bought that $9 chicken sandwich in one of the Grand Rapids bowling alleys and it won't happen again.

It can be easy to complain about the rake without thinking about all of the other expenses that, taken together, could cost as much as the rake.

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*Some have argued that having a schedule of blinds and antes would be too much clutter on the web site, but it doesn't have to be. Have a link for those who want to look at that information, just like this:

http://www.hardboiledpoker.com/images/2007to2008.JPG

Poker players want convenience and continuity (if we even know what that means) .. creatures of habit.

The most important thing a poker player should be thinking of ... can the game be beat? That is all that really matters if you are looking at this from a serious point of view. If they are just a rec player, then see above.

I don't really care where I drive to or what the expenses are if I have a realistic opportunity to cover those 'extra' expenses by being there. This is a big portion of bankroll management that most players don't think about. They look and see 12 BI in their right pocket, but pay no attention to how many swipes of the credit card they make along the way.

I've been to Harrah's in Joliet, IL a few times (4 or 5) and during two of those visits a 'certain' player just happened to be at the casino that night and blew $8000 (8 BI @ $800 each) at the 2/5 game on those nights. I'm told that he shows up 1 or 2 times a month and is a serious craps player who always takes 'a break' in the poker room during the night. I think I could find it in my heart to figure out this guy's schedule and be there on those nights regardless of the extra expenses I might encounter!!

As far as other poker room features and follies ... Of course you want every business to operate at the most efficient level, but in today's short staffed/short cut worlds we really need to be 'accepting' of a lot. I think you would find a stark difference between charity and casino operations simply because casinos have other operations going on that allow for them to 'properly' staff the poker room based on previous experiences ... and even that doesn't work too good at times.

My feeling is let the chips fall where they may ... and if that gets a few people 'out of sorts' then great, they are wasting energy on other than the poker they came there to be a part of which gives me a short term advantage. GL

Mostly good points, but at least some of what I expect doesn't require optimal business performance. Not telling the players when the room is going to be closed is unacceptable, and what business that cares at all about customers doesn't have a web site in 2015?

The main reason that I wanted to start this thread (before I found out that you had done it already) is what I learned from the Detroit thread. They discuss and compare their playing options in minute detail, and if two players complain about a room in that thread it can cost that room 10 players at their next tournament.

I've been at tables in both Grand Rapids and Muskegon where there have been Northway Lanes vs. TJs discussions, none of them initiated by me. Some of those players live in the Grand Haven/Spring Lake area and one if just about as close as the other, so they're looking for a reason to pick one over the other.

Those players crave information, and lots of it. We are no different than the players in Detroit. I care that the $50 tournament in Muskegon is slightly deeper than the one at TJs because it starts at 100/100 (TJs starts at 100/200.) I care that in general TJs has bigger player pools for similar tournaments. I consider everything, and I think it stinks that I don't get to play more hands than the guy who shows up 15 minutes late, because a tournament always starts late.

Starting on time, having an up-to-date web site and letting someone know when you're going to be closed aren't advanced business concepts. We should expect those things, at the very least, of every poker room. Let's not set our expectations too low.

I told someone in the Detroit thread that I tried to get a schedule of blinds and antes from TJs (I was told that it would happen but it never did) and the guy responded with: "Are you serious? They HAVE to give you that information."

The problem though is that the rooms don't feel incentivized to have good service. You can certainly argue that if they were ran better that they might make more money. But when a place like TJs literally steals their player's money and business goes on as usual then the rooms know they can get away with anything that they want because we are all degenerate gamblers.

You must be right about that, but I don't get it. I've talked quite a bit to the owner of the The Big Game Room (the company that owns the Muskegon poker room) several times, until he finally unfriended me on Facebook.

I basically told him that if he advertised and did a few simple things, he could have 40 or 50 players for the $50 freezout instead of 30. He always has a reason not to change anything. I don't get it, he only sells out one day a week (Sunday). Why not run a business to actually make money?

I even told him that he's in a competition with TJs for the same players, that the Detroit players communicate about who has the best room, and that West Michigan will do the same thing. Nothing seemed to get through.

Regarding TJs stealing the player's money, I'm not sure to what you're referring. I think we are all being ripped off by Michigan Gaming Control Board rules that limit when, where and how many hours we can play, and the room has no choice but to follow MGCB rules.

In almost every way I think that TJs is run better than The Big Game Room. That's why I often play at TJs when I could be playing in Muskegon 1.8 miles from my house.

I think most businesses could change some practices and make more money. But the incentive has to be be high enough. If a poker room is making X and you tell them (correctly) that they can do all this stuff and will instead make 1.2X the business owner might not be interested if it's significant work to get there. They are happy with X and their current level of work.

My reference to TJs was when the money the charity had collected was robbed at gunpoint and then the players were not allowed to cash in their chips.

Couple of tid bits ...

1) A request for a blind structure may be as simple as them not having a printer/copier at the facility. They certainly should be able to write it down on a paper by hand for you. Someone could write it down while they are playing in the tournament as well for their records. Nothing pretty there, but ...

When Westgate had their larger BI ($240) they did have the blind structure on the entry forms.

2) There are limitations under the MGC that prohibit most kinds of advertising .. and certainly there are no 'promotions' allowed. The operation of the room is a combination of the landlord, supplier and charity with most of us looking to the supplier to be 'knowing' authority. I don't know the current rules, but each charity 'may' have the ability to advertise, but the supplier 'probably' could only advertise their service, not that actual 'game'. It's a tricky line that suppliers probably don't want to push with the MGC.

3) If you are referring to when TJ's was robbed. The charity was actually the 'party' that the players needed to look for to get their money back. The supplier may operate the room, but they have no 'claim' to the cash. When I looked into opening my own room I had this discussion with my insurance agent and we couldn't even find a provider to offer coverage without a site inspection and certain conditions being met (at the landlord/supplier's cost). I would've had the charity pay a 'fee' to be added as an 'additional insured' to my policy or they would have to have their own policy cover the theft naming me (supplier) as an insured on their policy. Either way this would have to be done for every charity and insurance carriers don't push paper for free.

I am not sure if anyone pressed the charity (or would have the guts to sue a charity) for their cash from TJ's. Not sure that these charities are even insured for anything!! Now if you were looking for TJ's to 'step up' that's a different subject and it certainly would've been 'out of pocket' from my understanding. I'm not even sure if TJ's could've given any cash as that may have been viewed as a 'promo' by the MGC without getting approval first.

Once a charity license expires (4 day max, 4 times a year) the gig is up and you aren't allowed offer 'credits' under a different license. Paperwork must be filed with the MGC and 'going back' would be an issue without their consent.

This is a little busy .. and may not be totally accurate .. but ... GL

MSPT qualifiers start today at Firekeepers ... check their site for the schedule.

Remember that you can stack or sell any voucher you may win. If you win a bunch of $60 sat seats then you can stack them and play the ME without entering a $240. GL

1, I actually have a couple times written down the blinds and antes while I played a tournament, but I don't like to do that.

I am about to turn 60, and pretty conservative in general (don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, don't curse) so I play up my old tight conservative white guy image. I shine my shoes before a tournament, I sometimes wear a long-sleeved dress shirt in the summer (as long as the room has air conditioning) and I don't talk about poker much at the table. I don't want them to have any idea that I'm the kind of player who might open UTG with 76s--and I don't want them to know that I care about tournament structures.

2. When I used the word "advertising" I should have been more specific. Rooms can advertise without violating rules. TJs does that by keeping their web site up-to-date, giving away wallet-size cards with the names and address of all three bowling alleys, and they sometimes have handouts with printed pages containing tournament information. The owner also told me to call any time if I have any questions. The Big Game Room used to do some of those things occasionally, but that stopped months ago. They just sit there and hope someone shows up.

There are also sites where you can get listed. Very few rooms bother, but again, if I was an owner I would at least contact Poker Atlas and say, "Hey, we're over here in West Michigan (Poker Atlas covers all of the US and Canada.) That can be done without paying for an ad, it takes little effort and it costs nothing.

Pretty quiet weekend for me ... good to just take time off I guess.

Of course by Sunday night I was chomping at the bit to get out. Called Westgate and they were only 5 handed!! Ended up there anyway figuring that it would fill in for football night game. They quickly had 2 tables going by 800 and both tables were pretty active.

Westgate management has now put up signs prohibiting outside food and drink. It hand't really been an issue to get food brought in when the snack bar closed but someone ordered a pizza and didn't tell the driver to go in the poker room. The driver ended up talking to the owner and that got ugly. Not sure what time of day it happened but the signs are up!! Pretty sure that will loosen up after a month or two.

Woody's (Rounders) should have 2 charitites this week. There has been discussions of establishing a 2/5 game on Thursday nights since that is their slowest 'shift' .. With TJ's and Westgate both 'starting up' on Thursday (and no shutdown) that seems to be where the players are flocking for that day of the week. More to come if anything comes about. GL

I asked this question before and no one answered, so I'll try again.

As far as I can tell, there are only four rooms in or near the Muskegon/Grand Rapids/Holland triangle that deal tournaments, Northway Lanes in Muskegon and the three TJs rooms (Lincoln, Shamrock and Eastbook) in Grand Rapids.

Does anyone know about other tournament rooms?

No rooms in holland , and TJs is the only one running tourneys in GR... havent played in muskegon in years. Tourneys just dont make very much $ for the charity rooms

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Poker News Daily article on charity poker in New Jersey and Michigan:

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/charit...ichigan-27461/

There was a few 'sightings' of $100s being bad on the west side of the state as well. Makes it tough to swallow when you are taking the money from a charity .. I would assume that both the room and charity eat 50% of the 'issue' if the funds don't add up at the end of the night.

As you all 'should' know ... Many charity workers don't know how to handle chips (or do basic math) which opens up the door to problems one way or the other. And it's usually 'the other' when it comes to being short or long on chips/cash. GL

The charity workers are in a bad spot. I've talked to many of those volunteers and watched the process. It's pretty silly. In theory, they are in charge, but they are not equipped to do the job. The charity workers come to the poker room because the Michigan Gaming Control Board requires that they be there. Basically, they walk in and say, "What do I have to do?"

They usually don't know anything about poker. They don't know what an add-on or a rebuy is, and they might not even know that the difference between a cash game and a tournament.

They sit a table, take money, and give me a slip that says I paid my tournament buy-in. That's it. They don't know how to do anything else. They just volunteered to be there so the wrestling team or the Elks Lodge can make some money.

Given all that, I'm very reluctant to blame charity workers for anything that happens in a poker room.

Poker seems a bit slow the last week or so .. Thought it would pick up for football, but not as of yet.

Firekeepers had been running 2 to 3 tables of PLO for a bit and was running short handed at the start and never got the 2nd table going last night.

Rounders (Woodys) did have a 2nd table for a short time during the day once this week but I have heard that they have been slow at night .. unconfirmed.

Westgate was only 5 handed at 730 Sunday night but did grow to 2 full tables by 900 for a bit ... They are action players on Sunday nights IMO!! I have heard, and can 'mostly' confirm that they are jumping on Thursdays as well. GL

MSPT qualifiers and satellites are going at Firekeepers, just on weekends for now but check the schedule as the frequency increases as the tournament gets closer.

$60 qualifiers are generally at Noon on Friday and Saturday with $250 Saturday nights.

Remember that you can 'stack' these ... If you have 2 $60 qualifier vouchers then you can get into the tournament for 'half off' instead of playing in the $250 satellite. Obviously if you have 4 $60 vouchers you get into the ME for 'free'. These are creative ways to reduce the burden of the ME price. GL

Very good action at Westgate Saturday night. I opted to stay in GR rather than drive to Firekeepers for what I'm sure was a crazy night there too and wasn't disappointed. They actually got 3 tables going for quite awhile after 8:30 PM and 'the main' table was full of big stacks until 1:20 AM when 2 major pots wiped out 4 people.

These were some major gifts in the 2 pots with a couple of late night 'wishers' who thought they were wishing on a star but instead found out it was a freight train!!

1) Board ... 2s3s9x 5-ways down to 3-ways ... Turn Ax ... bet, shove, shove over-the-top and a call. 9x2x v 9x3x v 4s5s with the 9x2x tanking for a good 3 minutes before calling off with 2 outs!!

2) Board ... Jx7x8x ... 3-way all in with KK v JT v 9T

Now if these 2 hands don't tell you what you will run into at Westgate, then I can't help you ... GL

A slow start to the day ended up being another great cash table at Rounders (Woodys) on Tuesday. Plenty of interesting hands and re-buys. I don't think there was a new player at the table for over an hour at a time .. and the ones who did get on the table supplied a whole new batch of bullets.

Tough day for me ...

No callers on both my AA hands PF ... and no other pp over TT and 99 once each.
JJ<Q9 after I hit set on Turn
AQ<KQ
QJ<JT
folded a winning set when the board ran out flush and straight in 4-way action
Got called by K-high on a flush/straight board
Missed 2 flush/straight combo draws after gii OTF.
Had to lay down 2-pr multiple times after folks hit their 3 outers or the board paired

Not the best for a 5+ hour session. Tough to tell if I'm happy with my plays ...

1) Do I need to tighten up and play smaller pots .. even when I have guys in 3-outer spots ... Don't see why ...
2) Do I need to 'call down' more even though I think I'm beat ... Don't see why as I think I lose more money in the long run.

Ignorance is blind .. anyone got a good eye doctor? GL

Hey Answer,

Having played plenty in the game you're talking about, I don't feel like you're doing much wrong. That game is all about getting max value. Being on the wrong side of variance for awhile will make you question your play, but it seems to me you're probably doing the right thing. If it makes you more comfortable to slow the bleeding by pot-controlling for a session, I say go ahead for your mental health, but don't make it a habit. Leaving money on the table is what keeps people from becoming big winners in their game.

I'm also not so sure on opening up your calling range, unless you're pretty sure that a certain player is going to over-value a hand too often not to make a call. Examine your pot odds, think about their ranges, and decided if the price is right given that they might actually bet two pair on a four-flush board. If you're a winning player, you're going to fold the best hand once in a while, because the bad players are on occasion going to bluff you off of it by pure accident.

Firekeepers qualifier .. 15 $240 seats and $200 bubble fo 79 runners

And we short stack our way to a 'win' ...

Smaller than normal $240 at Firekeepers on Sunday. Thought there would be more since it was the last points opportunity before the 3rd quater freeroll. I don't think it made it to 70 with a few re-enters, but 1st still paid around $3500.

Played well and got it in with my QJss flush v AsKc on the Turn. He hit the spade on the River and I was out in 14th. He told me to shove the Flop and he folds, but I think he calls it off with his big stack and the 'obvious' draw out there on a Ts8h6s board.

Sure I could've chipped up a bit, but I though I could get some additional value (and an above average chip stack) by playing the hand out. I still thnk he is calling the Flop, but we will never know.

Good 2 tables (as usual) at Westgate on my way back home. Ended up getting my BI back between Firekeepers and there. Firekeepers went to almost nothing after their 7pm drawing for some 'end of Summer' cash. Bigger players were moaning they couldn't get their 1/3 PLO going. GL