They are a govt-backed monopoly, they can do whatever they want (and it shows). They actually used to have both rake and time charge but abandoned that in favor of more rake. If you do the math the 300/hr time charge at the 5/10/20 is not actually cheaper than the rake at 2/5/10. And generally at some places two blind games have evolved, at other places three blind games. That's actually a plus IMO, it creates more action. Arguably it doesnt make a huge difference

Thanks gents. Glad to hear it's 9 handed.
If the rake is not higher than the time charge I can understand why the 2/5/10 might be the regular game.
I remember even further back when they use to take a commission ante from every player each hand but there was a sweet NL/PLO mixed game that ran.
Any chance Barangaroo offers something better maybe even as a loss leader or they only care about the highroller baccarat tables?

It doesn't open until 2020 so I don't think that information is publically available yet.

Guys anyone here know that if poker winnings are taxable in australia? Ive looked at the requirements such as carrying on as a business etc, but would like to hear anyones thought about how they handled it.

They’re not

Thanks, is this from experience? so I dont need to declare anything if I made lets say 100k this year?

If you are receiving an income from another source, job or business for example, pay taxes on that, and lodge a tax return each and every year around that, you can make as much as you like playing poker. ATO sees it as secondary to your primary income.

Where it becomes messy ( and costly, you never ever beat ATO) is where poker is your ONLY source of income and you are not supplying a tax return. They want their share of this PRIMARY income, and have a specific team of investigators in Canberra looking for tax evaders.

ATO cross references with everyone; bricks and mortar casinos and online mobs like Ignition included. They use social media as a shortcut extensively; this thread will be read at some stage too. Once you are flagged, you stay flagged, and your tax returns receive extra scrutiny each year.

Bottom line, if you have a job or business, pay your taxes, have a continual line of tax returns on this PRIMARY income, you can make a hundred times that amount playing poker on a secondary level and ATO couldn't care less.

If you are outside this, and plan to be year in, year out, talk to an accountant to work out a strategy. Too much data is shared around to be anonymous in 2019. You need to know the system to work the system.

I am around pro poker players the entire time. Dozens of them.

And I’ve never once heard one of them talk about paying any tax or even once getting a sweat from the ATO

Lol. My experiences completely different. Wait until they lodge a tax return or travel overseas. You learn the meaning of retrospective.

I am not an expert in this area, so it's just my opinion, but anyway, the ATO generally doesn't care about gambling winnings in that they are non-taxable. They are not just tax free, they are not even declared on a tax return.

However, I personally know a guy, an accountant, who successfully claimed to a professional gambler for one particular financial year, in order to get a tax deduction for a high 5 figure gambling loss.

So my line of thinking is that if the ATO allows a tax deduction for a professional gambler, they sure as hell consider winnings to be taxable.

When I was playing live full time in Treasury I spoke with one of the regs one day who worked for the ATO and I was like lolna poker is non taxable bruh and he was like errr not quite, like trump was saying if it's your primary income or you treat it as a business, then I think they're allowed to tax you.

That said, I will strap c4 to my chest and bumrush the ATO before they get any of my hard earned gambling income.

More interesting thing to me is what the casinos report.

I keep a large chunk of my bankroll at Star in my own account and I’ve been reassured several times that this $$ doesn’t get reported to authorities, banks, ex wives etc

Apparently paying some tax somehow is good

I have been doing a lot of research in the last month and have actually spoken to a number of accountants and lawyers regarding the topic of taxation. I would say 75% of the industry advice (a couple of lawyers and mainly accountants) I have received believe that if poker income is your primary source of income, then your earnings are most likely assessable.

For confidentiality, I will keep the source very vague, but I spoke to a senior manager at one of the big 4 accounting firms and he gave me a very thorough rundown of the ATO's very recent thought process regarding these types of "hobbies". Basically he says the ATO are clamping down on these types of activities. However, from the discussion we had, (he never suggested this) but I derived that there are many difficulties the ATO could face if they do start defining gambling activities as a business. I.e. if poker players form gambling syndicates they could effectively minimise their taxes to a negligible amount. However the cost of setting up something like this would be very expensive and would need a very capable legal team.

I am still trying my best to gather as much (free) information and advice before I pursue any serious action (private ruling) regarding the situation. So if anyone has any personal experiences or know of any professionals who are experienced in this area, please pm me.

Surely it's seriously seriously in their best interests not to report anything...

Cheers Skuz. Best advice imo is to just wing it

Thanks for this, Im in final year of university so I might start lodging next year after the advice of an accountant

I asked allinpav not sure how much he was earning when he lived in australia but he said it was tax free

Been more interested in this topic, ive heard I needed to be more careful than I have been. Even though gambling winnings aren't technically taxable, I've heard stories of ATO going after players, the case ends up being dismissed but they needed to pay lawyers to fix it.

The additional wrinkle in all this is that many of the live ‘pros’ at Star are claiming unemployment benefits and housing support

I knew a guy that did that back in the day. He needed a way to pay the rake somehow right?

Last I heard, he had a $1M USD bankroll and could afford to pay rake for himself :-)

Does anybody know what longer term win rates are possible given the rake structure in 2/3 and 2/5?

I don’t mean to be a dick, but anyone asking about max win rates at a rake structure isn’t anywhere near good enough to win at the level and thus shouldn’t worry about them.

The game is definitely really beatable. I personally think 2/5/10 has got a lot tougher in the past 9 months. More nitty regs sitting more often and they both provide fewer easy seats to beat but also imo are driving away the older recs because they do not know how to behave at the table and are worsening the ecosystem

I’ve actually played a bit more 2:3 recently because of the above (I’m half way between red and reg) and I think there’s definitely an argument that if you’re good but not a crusher, that 2/3 would provide a better win rate...albeit it’s a very different game

Your being a dick :-) but I don't mind and I appreciate your input:-)

I am trying to find a framework that works for me but I am defo not a "maths guy" and don't have a baseline to aim for that is realistic.

I have been in and out of the game for 10+ years, one time for 18mths as my sole source of income playing 2-5 at the time on the Gold Coast where that game roughly equated to a splashy 1/3 or 2/3 game.

I have played 2/5 (100BB games because fishier) in Vegas for I guess 6 months total and have been a winner but am definitely not a crusher.

In any case, in Vegas , it has been considered to be a crusher at 10BB per hour long term, and a good reg at I guess 6-8BB per hour.

This was at a max rake of $4 (now it is $5 and $6).

You would think that given the rake we have to pay, our games should be theoretically not beatable but I can't do the math myself and am looking for some input from the field.

My "feeling" in my game (2/4) on the GC is that 7 or 8 BB per hour would be crushing it and that 5 to 6 would make you a good reg but I just wanted to check in here and see what people thought.

Definitely isn't a dumb question and one I asked myself before going pro in live games with high rake. I managed to convince myself that $30-$40 an hour playing the 2/5 at Treasury with 10%@3bb cap was the absolute ceiling and that I could never earn more because the rake was so high.

I look back now on the player I was and almost cringe at how bad I was compared to now, and I was pretty sure I was easily the best player in the room.

My hourly was like $35 after 2200 hours of 2/3-2/5 live and I thought I was a good player, probably was extremely good compared to the field, but I would now submit the ceiling is much higher, hard to say exactly where but definitely above the 40-45 mark I'd suggest.

I would think $45 is the likely ceiling for 2/3 (500) at Star