I would like some advice on how to handle inconsistently enforced rules, particularly surrendering the under-call. This is one that I feel like always gets enforced against me, but when I’m the one who raised and someone undercalls, dealers frequently allow players to take their money back. Sometimes it’s not enough money to quibble over (the incident that motivated this post was just a completed SB after I raised Btn or CO), but that’s not the point. And I don’t want to be the dick to make a big deal out of it and call the floor, making it awkward for recs at the table. Is this just yet another quirk about this room that we must endure?

I don’t ever want to be able to take my money back. If I wasn’t paying attention or I acted too quick and didn’t see the raise, that’s on me and my money should stay in the pot. I just want to see everyone abide the same. Or is it better for the game to just shut up and let the fish have his call back?

I had a situation where I was playing PLO and asked the dealer (who also sometimes is a floorperson) what the pot was, as I hovered a handful of chips over the table to make my bet.

He confirmed with me the bet amount (roughly $100) and I put the chip out (I was in seat 8 and we are playing 8-max)

So there was a decent amount of time spent confirming with the dealer before my bet was placed. Then another 5 seconds passes, and Seat 1 puts out two green $25 chips.

The dealer turns to him to talk, then the guy pulls his bet back. I question what's going on and he says that before I placed my bet, that guy had announced a bet of $50.

However the dealer never stopped the action or mentioned this to me. I had to have the floor called over, and this dealer looked nervous like he knew he screwed up, so he went into CYA (cover your a**) mode and the floor on duty sided with him and the guy was able to take his bet out.

Yesterday I started the 10/10 PLO list, there was a point in time there were enough names to call it, but it wasn't called. I'm playing the 5/5 PLO and look at the list and see somehow my name has gone from first to 16th out of 18 players on the 10/10?????

I inquire and I'm told that someone gave Pablo (the room director) a list of names of people that were going to show up at a specific time to play, and so their names got moved in front of everyone else.

You can't fight Rome, they know we're going to come play there anyway, and they have very little competition. So they're going to do whatever they want to do and unfortunately you're going to have very little recourse about it.

If the player had verbally announced an oot bet of 50 prior to you making your bet, and then you bet 100, his 50 bet is nonbinding as action changed and he can take it back. That's a standard ruling. There is no requirement for a dealer to stop your action when action is on you bc someone else made an oot bet. Neither does he have to announce the oot action prior to you acting. This is bc the oot action has no standing yet.

Here's a thread discussing unannounced oot action from earlier.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...65/?highlight=

I’m not talking about out of turn action. I’m talking about when there has been a bet or a raise and a player puts out less than a full call on their turn. I understand out of turn action is not binding. I’m talking about when someone isn’t paying attention, acts too quickly on their turn, or is attempting some kind of angle.

In Kn1sh’s example he put out a $100 and the next player thought he was calling $50 and put out two green chips (less than a call). By rule, that money is surrendered to the pot. The player has the option to complete the call or fold, leaving the undercall.

My impression at SHRT is that they tend to enforce this rule more likely if they perceive that you are competent. But they frequently allow players to take their money back when they seem clueless, or sometimes it seems if the dealer is friendly with the player.

Actually my reading of RRoP #13 says that if a pot is raised but player does not know and he puts in a smaller amount he can pull back those chips and reconsider his action with all options as long as there has not been additional action behind him.

Not everywhere uses RRoP and there can always be local rule but the default for a RRoP rules based room is the opposite of your statement. RRoP are older and not as popular now but IMO they are still best base rules for cash.

In TK's example he said that before he bet his 100, that the next player to act verbally bet 50 OOT. Apparently TK didnt hear it, but the dealer did. That player then put out the 50 he had verbally bet OOT. So OOT rules apply.

This is correct. It's the gross misunderstanding rule. What has muddied the waters a bit lately is that TDA rules has no gross misunderstanding rule. So if you undercall, you may be able to forfeit the chips you put into the pot and fold, or you may be forced to complete the call, depending on the situation. But you never get your chips back. Many rooms are starting to use TDA rules for cash games as well. But floors and dealers also remember the cash game gross misunderstanding rule, so until the exact situation comes up, they may not be aware of the differences or which rule their room has chosen to go with for cash games.

I announced "pot" and probably took about 5 seconds confirming with dealer the correct bet amount of $100

Then another 5 seconds passed before Seat 1 slid out two green $25 chips.

The dealer turned to the player, had a discussion I couldn't hear and then the player pulled back his bet and I spoke up.

The dealer claimed he heard seat 1 announce a bet of 50 "before" I made my bet. But why seat 1 would take roughly 10 seconds to put out the bet he supposedly made verbally is beyond me.

It's always hard to determine exactly what happened when reconstructing these types of situations. Especially when you are trying to figure out what the other player heard or saw. And especially when you are dealing with seat 8 and seat 1 with the dealer inbetween. You feel confident that seat 1 was completely aware of what your conversation was with the dealer about the pot and heard you bet pot, yet you couldnt hear the conversation that seat 1 had with the dealer.

All I was saying is that bc of the OOT bet of 50, it is treated differently than a situation where a player simply doesnt see a raise and puts out a different amount. There is a factor of ambiguity that we cant know since we dont know what was said btwn seat 1 and the dealer. It could have gone like this:

Dlr: what's this 50 for?
Plr: its my 50 verbal bet. Dont I still owe that?
Dlr: no action changed, so you are not bound to that anymore
Plr: OK.

OR

He may have ruled that the player can take his bet back as a misunderstanding when he shouldnt have.

Cant know for sure. So I'm just suggesting that sometimes situations arent as black and white as some players think.

I want to stop talking about out of turn action, please. Nobody is arguing about OOT action. We are talking specifically about those instances when a bet or raise has been made, the action is on the player who undercalls, they are ordering a drink, watching tv, talking to a friend on the rail, staring at their phone, etc. throw out a $2 limp, then realize “Oh ****, the bet is $12? Never mind” and the dealer lets them take the $2 back.

My issue is, rule the same every time for everyone. I have been made to surrender money to a pot when I put out less than I realized was bet and the dealer says “�� sorry it’s gotta stay”. I have watched the same scenario where the player put out less than a call and the dealer slides their chips back to them. Nobody claimed gross misunderstanding when I was forced to leave my money in. So which is it?

The TDA rules eliminated the gross misunderstanding rule, so under those rules the only question is whether a player can fold and forfeit what he put out, or whether he must put out a full raise. What I'm not sure about is if the THR has also eliminated the gross misunderstanding rule from the cash games. I know they used to have it for cash games, but dont know if they now use the TDA undercall rules in cash games.

The gross misunderstanding rule doesnt necessarily only apply to large bets. And depending on the situation, a player may or may not be able to take their chips back. For example, in a 1/2nl game, there are several limps, then the player in seat 8 raises to 12. The player n seat 1 misses that and puts out $2, clearly indicating he understands the bet to be 2. RROP's gross misunderstanding rule would allow the player to take back the 2 as by putting out exactly the amount of the earlier bets, its clear he misunderstands the action.

OTOH, if there are several limps of 2, seat 8 raises to 20, and then seat 1 puts out 15 he is required by RROP to complete the call to 20. So there are situations that appear the same, but actually differ in the ruling.

But as I said, I cant say for sure whether the THR follows the TDA rule for undercalls or the RROP rule. I would suggest checking with a shift manager. And if what he says doesnt match your experience, let him know. If it appears to be a problem he could choose to add it to weekly notes to dealers for emphasis.

Everyone wants consistent rulings. But the fact is is that when you have over 150 dealers, many new, many coming from rooms with certain house rules that differ, it takes time to get everyone on the same sheet of music. And sometimes in the middle of a shift, even an experienced dealer or floor may simply forget that a certain rule was changed recently, and revert back to the way it has been for years. They're human.

If you dont think a dealer made a correct call you can always ask for a floor. Or if you dont want to hold up the game, you can ask a manager away from the table.

It appears like sports book is going to be approved for HR in Florida. Anybody have insight where they might build out that space? It would suck mightily if it's the standard 15 minute walk from the poker room to most of the rest of the casino.

I thought they were going to have a legal battle on their hands since they and Disney pushed through a few years back legislation that made it impossible to expand local gaming without getting approval statewide (i.e. people in Miami would need to vote to approve expansion in Tampa, etc)

They titled the bill to trick voters who don't bother researching to make it look like a positive for the state, when all it did was increase their monopoly.

But I read that very legislation may prevent them from easily obtaining the expansions they were seeking, because now their plans would need to get approved statewide rather than just in the locales they're looking to grow.

Actually I am NOT referring to the gross misunderstanding. But I am referring to a specific value error in a bet.

For reference, I am using RRoP v. 11 as shared in
" http://www.gottatalkpoker.com/rrp/RobertsRules.pdf "

Section 3- General Poker Rules, on page 11, subsection "Betting and Raising" #13 (on page 12) says,

"13. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8."

(emphasis added)

As noted this is a different rule that the gross misunderstanding. Though it some cases both rules could apply. In the references post, I am NOT sure the $50 would invoke the gross misunderstanding, but it does seem to completely align with the quoted rule.

The early rumor is that there will be a smallish sports themed bar/restaurant carved out of an existing area with televisions and betting kiosks added all over the casino. The big push will be the sports book app which seems to limit the need/desire to build a Las Vegas style book.

Again, just the early rumor.

Planning a trip to Hard Rock Tampa - mostly to play some poker for a few nights. Am planning to stay at the hotel. Am I better off staying in a West Tower room or an East Tower room ? Is there a difference in terms of the quality of the room ? If not a major difference - is one of the towers much closer to the poker room then the other. Also - looking for recommendations for dinning at the Hotel.

Thanks.

The East tower is the new tower. I have not been in the new rooms, but they look nicer online than the old ones. Both towers are far from the poker room, but they are close to each other; the west tower is probably a 1 minute shorter walk.

If you don't already know, the rooms are known to be outrageously expensive ($400+/night during the week). I've stayed in a west tower room, and while it was a nice enough room, I would have been disappointed had I paid $400/night for it. I'd personally stay off-site if I were visiting.

Rooms have been covered…as far as dining, there are many good options - but they’re not cheap! The only thing I actively avoid is the food court. I’m not particularly impressed with the buffet, either - I think it used to be much better!

For a quick bite, the poker snack bar is convenient, relatively inexpensive, and decent enough for what it is.

The main restaurants all have their own niche - it really depends on what you like. They’re all good at what they do, though. They are spread throughout the property and you’ll do some walking to get there, but that’s really not a bad thing if you are spending hours sitting at a poker table!

I see the craps tables set up. Anyone know when they go live?

Also what happened to this site? Navigating is a little more difficult.

Friday night I asked 2pit bosses when it would go live and the answers is that no one knows.

Just want to rant a bit here at poker management at THR.

For a long time their lineup of dealers was really solid top to bottom. They recently lost a lot of experienced dealers some for petty reasons including not being flexible at all in scheduling and draconian work rules. Doing dumb **** like taking away their fridge in the break room. The new crop is slow and just not as personable. I'm sure they will get better, but when you are paying your dealers like $3 an hour why on earth would you ever push the good ones out the door. You are paying that guy (or lady) the same amount who has been working for 10 years as the guy fresh out of dealer school.

I hope this does not violate the rules of this sub as it does not mention any people or even make anybody identifiable. If it does feel free to remove the post.

Unfortunately the poker room is the black sheep of the property. Tampa Hard Rock takes in about a BILLION in PROFIT on a yearly basis. They don't give two licks about poker in the grand scheme of the property. And they have essentially a monopoly in the area. While there are other poker rooms, they are the only "destination" property of this sort for 250+ miles. They know we're going to come there and play regardless, there's little incentive for them to make changes beneficial for players. And the local rooms in the area can't really compete with the juggernaut that is THR.

Post-Covid a lot of great dealers have left like you said over managements inflexibility with scheduling and just generally poor treatment of their staff. And the newer crop of dealers struggle to provide the level of service some of the better dealers provided. Not to mention they struggle to get enough staff (although this is an issue affecting most employers, not just poker rooms).

Some youtube channel from Florida was trolling Hard Rock recently in which they "Intentionally count cards at blackjack"

https://youtu.be/T5I3ehlARL4?t=437

What are the max buyins for the 2/2 and 5/5 plo games?
Are they time or rake?

Your monopoly for 250+ miles is slightly in accurate. While still Seminole, there is Hollywood Hard Rock which is less than 200 miles. Definitely destination quality resort and believe it or not they do mildly compete with each other. My degen wife has a couple of different hosts. She can and will play one off against the other before we decide 2here to go.