Haven't decided yet but it doesn't seem like it will be disastrous either way it goes and if I'm reading it right it has no effect on Seminole Casinos (except they might have less competition). Why vote yes though? I realize the expansion of poker may not be happening either way but if it passes isn't that another hurdle and just makes Seminole stronger?

What group is responsible for putting Amendment 3 on the ballet? I'm guessing Seminole or their proxies?

I looked it up...it's basically the same as last month but without the top 50 thing. Instead of 555 on S/T/R it's alternating 777/300 for an average of 538.50. Hmm...I wonder if the recs will be dumb enough to think the HH went up when it actually went down slightly.

Weekends also appear better at 555 but it's just from 845 to 1245 instead of 245.

Basically nothing changes, approximately the same promotions with the marketing shifted around to make it look like a reversion to the structured of several months ago if you avoid the fine print.

A yes vote for amendment 3 strengthens the Seminole and Disney current positions which is why they are both spending lots of money to push this amendment.

A yes vote also will make the chance of online poker every happening in FL even smaller than it already is.

For these reasons, I plan to vote NO.

Going to be playing poker at Hard Rock Tampa in the afternoon and heading over to the hockey arena to catch a Lightning game. How far is it and can traffic and parking be an issue near the arena ? Is Uber a good option ?

Uber is the best option, by far.


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Yes, Amendment 3 is good for the Seminoles. The Seminoles and Disney are backing it.

I am voting yes because I believe that slots and casino-style table games (including banked poker games) take players and money away from the live poker tables at the pari-mutuels.

Yeah parking may be an issue downtown but it's an easy ride, prob 10 minutes to the arena from the HR.

Not sure if it varies, but the 'bankers' at my establishment (Club 52, Melbourne, FL) are from Texas I believe. So not only are those games taking money off the poker tables, they're also taking the money out of the state/FL Gambling Eco System.

The bad thing about these games is that it takes the bad players, those looking to put their money in and gamble, away from the poker tables. I've noticed some of the fish that I would actively look to transfer to their tables are no longer at the tables, but are chasing f'ing flushes, UTH, or One Card Poker (f'ing War).

I think part of the problem is combined with 13z it's going to be really hard for these tracks to survive. So this amendment is going to push those players to the Hard Rock...where all these table games are available. The table game degens aren't going back to poker, they are just going to play table games at a different location.

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I'm sure the Rock ambassadors can handle the acti.........oh wait. #YAYO

Not all of them. Many played the live poker tables at the pari-mutuel cardrooms before the table games moved in. I think those players will just return to the live poker tables at the same location.

I wish I had more real info on the finances of the dog tracks to get a better read on how 13 will affect their bottom line. I know that overall the dog races run at a multi-million dollar annual loss for all the tracks combined. The race prize pools are subsidized by poker revenues per the law, and any shortfall in the bottom line is covered by poker or slot revenues. There may be a couple dog tracks that are profitable though.

The dog tracks will have to make adjustments, obv. If they can't convert their facilities to profitable use (retail space, entertainment venues, etc.), then they can sell off some or all of their real estate and move their cardroom/slot operations to new digs. I doubt we will see much, or any, shuttered doors. We may see some re-locations and some transfers of ownership.

Anyone know when the new manager starts?

Why do they have dog tracks if it isn't profitable? Is it only legal to have a poker room if theres a dog track?? If so thats totally stupid. It's a cruel sport IMO but you're saying it's not even profitable so they're just perpetuating the dog races for legal reasons?

Years ago there were lots of dog and horse tracks (and jai alai). At some point when they started wanting to legalize slot machines and poker, a decision was made to allow them but only at places that already had dogs. horses or jai alai. Lawmakers didnt want casinos popping up everywhere so slots and poker was limited to these venues.

As years went by less and less people bet on dogs and nobody wants to watch jai alai anymore but they keep those things going so they can keep the casinos/poker rooms open.

Dog racing isnt cruel. Its the conditions they keep the dogs in when they arent racing that is cruel and my guess is they mostly do that because they dont make enough money so they scrimp on all the things that would make the dogs comfortable to save money. Horses arent abused like the dogs are. Horse tracks and horses owners still make plenty of money.

So yes, they are mostly still racing dogs for legal reasons but this new law will decouple dogs from poker and slots. There are negatives to it also though.

Tampa is not the worst 2/5 in the country, the isle sits alone on that tall throne.

Tampa probably is in the top 5 crap games though. There is a balance between degen/wealth/regs in every population and you just need 1 of the first 2 to be good. For example Detroit has no wealth but huge degen pop.

Isle has no degen, middle income and retirement wealth, and a huge reg pop.

WPB has above average degen, huge wealth, and a semi big reg pop.

Tampa is similar to isle just not as bad.

Thanks for the explanation. Seems time for a legislative update...

The two go hand in hand, no?

So I'm still kind of confused about the consequences of Amendment 3 and 13. Hmm...

Amendment 3 passed, so the only way to open new casinos now is by citizen initiative, which requires 8% of the previous presidential vote amount of people to form a petition, and then that has to be voted on. This seems like a really big hurdle to jump, so I'm not guessing there will be any new casinos in Florida in the near future.

Amendment 13 passed, which "Phases out commercial dog racing in connection with wagering by 2020. Other gaming activities are not affected".

So...the parimutuel facilities will now just be card rooms, or are they shutting down in 2020? And if the dog racing is not required any longer for the poker rooms, does that mean new poker rooms can be opened without dog tracks?

Mostly correct summary, MikeStarr, but a few details corrected:
Pari-mutuel wagering was first legalized in Florida in 1932, and jai-alai followed shortly thereafter in 1935. In 1935, slot machines were also legalized, not restricted to just the pari-mutuel tracks. But just two years later, the law authorizing slot machines was repealed.

It was actually dominoes and poker that came to the race tracks first, in 1997, years before any slots. The Florida constitution (of 1968) outlaws all forms of gambling except pari-mutuel wagering. The 1997 legislative bill authorizing dominoes and poker declared that those games are forms of pari-mutuel wagering, "because the participants play against each other instead of against the house." But the specified that the pari-mutuel facilities could gain a license to run those games only if a certain number of live horse or dog races were run (or live jai-alai games were played), and a percentage of the gross revenues from the races or games had to be put into the race purses (minimum 4% for the dog tracks).

Slot machines were later authorized for the pari-mutuel facilities in South Florida (Miami-Dade and Broward counties only) in 2004 by a constitutional amendment that was put on the ballot through the signature petition process, backed by the pari-mutuels themselves. Note that this is also what lead to the conversion of the bingo slot machines at the Indian casinos to casino-style slot machines, and eventually to the Seminole compact authorizing the full-blown Seminole casinos. (Perhaps the pari-mutuels now regret their push for slot machines?)

Correct. Any this is why today the dog tracks overall throughout the state run at an annual loss, cumulatively in the millions of dollars.

I beg to differ. Not only are the living conditions cruel, but the racing itself is cruel, I believe. Yes, greyhounds are bred to run. But running is different than racing. There are many, many reported injuries to the dogs from the races, as well as some deaths. But the cruelty goes far beyond that, and the living conditions aren't a result from scrimping because they don't make enough money. Even in the heyday of the dog races, when it was quite profitable, the dogs were caged about 18 hours a day. Their diet is very restrictive - only what they require for the strong muscles and burst of energy for racing. The dogs reach racing age at about a year-and-a-half, and their racing career ends about two to two-and-a-half years later (if they haven't been permanently injured or die beforehand). Then the dogs are dumped by their owners - originally mostly to be euthanized, but in recent years to the many greyhound rescue shelters across the state (some funded partially by the race tracks). The dogs then have to be retrained and their eating habits rehabilitated to a regular diet to be adoptable. I don't know the statistics on how many actually make it to new homes, but it's not 100% and I suspect it's not even 50%. The greyhound racing dog population is about 8,000 at any one time, and this must cycle through new generations of racing dogs every year. About 5% of the dogs die before they make it to retirement. So despite the many claims otherwise, in terms of animal treatment, it is a cruel industry. Perhaps some owners love their dogs; perhaps they get high-quality food; perhaps they even love to race. But the overall picture is one of inherent inhumanity.

The biggest negative is the loss of jobs: the dog owners, trainers, support personnel; the track personnel; etc. There will be some amelioration of these numbers as the track facilities are re-purposed or redeveloped. But that doesn't necessarily give new jobs to the same people. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that even if the Amendment hadn't passed, it is quite likely that the legislature would eventually decouple the races from the cardrooms (or even outlaw the dog races altogether - it is already banned in 40 states). And in a free market environment - where the licensing of the cardrooms is not dependent on running live races - most of the live dog races would close up anyway, as they are not profitable for the race tracks.

By the way, dog racing, horse racing and jai-alai were never against the law, and still aren't. It is only wagering on them that required authorizing laws, and it is only wagering on live dog races that take place in Florida that is now illegal. It is still legal to race the dogs and it is still legal to wager on dog races that take place outside of Florida. So maybe some dog tracks will convert to entertainment racing venues, making money off entry tickets and sales of food and paraphernalia. And most of them will probably continue OTB on pari-mutuel races taking place elsewhere in some form or another.

It is a long and expensive road now to any gambling expansion. The signature-petition process to get an amendment on the ballot is complex. But there are companies that do it for a fee - runs about $1M to get it done. The expensive part is getting the Amendment to pass. Any gambling expansion amendment is going to be a big fight in the media, opposed by Disney, the Indian casinos and the political conservative right. It will likely take a war chest of $25M to $50M to have chance.

But in reality, this was also true before Amendment 3 passed. The Florida constitution outlaws all forms of gambling except for pari-mutuel wagering and charity bingo, and those forms that have a carveout from constitutional amendments that have been passed (the lottery; slots in South Florida pari-mutuels; the Seminoles have casinos because of federal law that allows them on Indian lands, if casino gambling is allowed anywhere else in a state.)

So it always would have taken a constitutional amendment for any casino-style gambling expansion in the state - slots, casino-style table games, banked games, new casinos, etc. The only difference is that now, per Amendment 3, the only way to get it on the ballot is by voter initiative - the signature petition process. Before the legislature could have voted to put it on the ballot.

Yes, the dog tracks can now just be cardrooms. They have to shut down their wagering on live dog races that take place in Florida by the end of 2020, but their cardrooms can stay open without the races.

No, new poker rooms cannot be opened without dog tracks. Amendment 13 specifies that only greyhound racing permitholders as of January 1, 2018 are exempted from the requirement to hold live races in order to hold a cardroom license. However, the race tracks have found ways in the past to open satellite cardrooms that don't run live races, so perhaps the existing license holders will be able to open more cardrooms in new locations, where approved by the county. It's not clear yet what will be allowed, and will probably take a legislative bill or court cases to clarify.

oh sick, i know u. u play there? i've gone like 10 times over the last few weeks or smth. have i played with u? :O

but yea the games kind of suck ass. theres like 6-7 regs to every table. granted, they're all fish regs like myself, but still.

dno why i keep going. maybe coz im on live heater or smth. but i'm getting tired of people calling me a nit ffs............. some girl called me a ****** nit...

Ive said for 2 years that the Isle is the worst 2/5 in the Country, in terms of small pot sizes, nitty regs, actual decent players that dont hand you their stacks just because they have TPTK..ect.

But there are ways to crush every game. You cant crush nitty reg game the same way you crush a wild L.A. action game.

If the Isle is crushable, so is every room.

Xanadu,

How does the new law affect getting sports wagering legalized in Florida?

As before, it will take a constitutional amendment for any type of gambling expansion and the only way now to get it on the ballot is by voter initiative (the signature petition process). However, it might be possible to classify sports wagering as a type of legal pari-mutuel wagering by legislative vote, in the same manner that poker and dominoes was authorized for the pari-mutuel permitholders.

That's a possible new venture for the tracks and frontons. But if they get it, so do the Indian casinos without revenue sharing with the state, and it could be grounds for breaking the compact revenue-sharing on their casino revenues or at least renegotiating the compact terms. That makes it tough to get a bill for sports wagering through the state legislature.

PokerXanadu, serious question.

How the **** do you have so much knowledge? Are you a lawyer?

Nope, not a lawyer. But I have read and studied every federal bill related to gambling and many of the related court cases; every proposed federal bill related to gambling or poker since the passage of UIGEA; every Florida statute related to gambling or poker; every Florida proposed bill related to gambling or poker in the last 15 years or so; all the Seminole compacts; all the Florida regulations on poker; summaries of the gambling laws in most other states and many other countries; all the state bills and regulations related to online poker or online gambling; almost all the regulations for online poker in most jurisdictions around the world; and many, many news articles and other writings on the topics. I have also written two legislative bills - one for federal licensing and regulation of online poker (78 pages) and one for state licensing and regulation of online poker in Florida (31 pages) - unfortunately neither got any traction. I've also written a Guideline for Online Poker Regulations, which had some influence on the regulatory process for online poker in both Nevada and New Jersey; and an Internet Poker Site Code of Conduct (for site operators).

So, it's just all self-taught (as are my poker skills). It's been a great hobby for me for the last 25 years or so. I actually enjoy reading things like statutes, legislative bills and regulations. I probably should have been a lawyer.

Or maybe I'm just an AI developed by Google.

Decent chance you are. The amount of dorks in this place with backpacks and iPads waiting for the nuts is overwhelming it’s not shocking the action sucks.