The connection made sense in my mind but maybe wasn't obvious: The RD PLO might have killed one of my favorite niche games (6/12 limit Big O) because the player pool has some overlap. I don't mind if that produces a sustainable PLO game, especially a daily one, because I like PLO and it can generate lots of money. But I do mind if it redistributes all the cash to the good players in 6 months and dies.

The Hollywood (Shoreline) PLO, basically the same game, fizzled after a couple of months so it's fueling my skepticism. However, the Red Dragon enjoys greater volume because of all the Everett traffic so hopefully the PLO is 100% sustainable. If so it will make good PLO players lots of money.

Kind of surprised that someone felt the need to white knight...

Anyhow, I apologize for being short and applaud how you handled my response. It's a good conversation about sustainability of poker games around town, which matter to all of us. I had always been a skeptic of PLO, and RD was the first place that a large number of non-PLO players tried PLO and continued to play it. So whatever it is doing, it is doing it right.

The game does get much much bigger than a lot of these new PLO players expect, so hopefully it will sustain longer.

Anyone check out the new hideaway yet?


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Yeah. I'll attempt a mini report tomorrow if time allows. In a sentence, feels like the old Hideaway but much much nicer.

Has anyone noticed any positive changes at the Muckleshoot since they got a new poker manager?

Mini Trip Report: Redbird's Hideaway

The space: They're remodeling now so it's still rough, but you can tell they're upgrading the appearance. Green is the theme color, with a sort of brown contemporary wood façade on the bar and around the restaurant area. More TVs, a couple of huge ones, so less straining to watch sports (although they're a bit unbalanced, about 5 on the south wall).

Hideaway regulars will notice the wall of fame is no more. Johnny Chan and Phil Ivey won't be looking down on us any more. No more photos of the regs complaining about getting aces cracked.

In seriousness, while I thought the cheeseball aspect to the old H was fun, this is much classier and should bring in traffic.



Games: They're running some NLHE tournament series to get things started. When I was there (~10pm Sunday before Memorial Day) they had the final table of the tournament and a 4/8 LO8 game going, which I understand to be the norm during this transition period. I stayed until midnight when the tournament had just chopped and it seemed the cash game might have been dwindling.

Player pool is the same Hideway LO8 player pool, so loose, passive, beatable.

No jackpots yet and they gave us a couple of rake-free downs because of the dealer training....




Dealers: Still very much in training. Very eager to learn proper procedure and I know the management will train them well. No Dunning Kruger---I have no problem with people making mistakes or learning, but what I look for is those willing to always improve, and they seem to have that.

1-2 experienced dealers at least from the old H. One of the new ones is particular sharp, probably in this thread, and is keeping the newbier noob dealers in line.

Alas, an incident broke out where a drunk player started insulting one of the new dealers. LO8 is sort of a player-run game anyway, sometimes too much so. Ended up in the nightmare Omaha scenario: 2-3 player shouting different things to the dealer,* a more experienced dealer pushing in sticking up for him as he should, and the drunk guy causing a ruckus and being invited to leave.

More to follow







*Some people know I'm in a self-taught Table Captain recovery program. Frankly, my past TC nittery is kind of embarrassing but sometimes it's a fine line when saying something can be helpful.

There's no use in joining the fray when every one else is yelling something at the dealer--very common in LO8--so I tried to keep mum when that happened, but damn, it's frustrating to see people yell wrong things and get the dealer more flustered. I do and did give feedback and suggestions (to me, transparency is essential in dividing pots) esp because new dealers should learn how to do it right but once the above scene breaks out it's not constructive.

So what you are saying is that Hideaway is the same in disguise under new color scheme and less experienced dealers?

Not sure why anyone even bother investing money into that place.

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Some skepticism is warranted (they have an uphill climb since Red Dragon can use corporate might to maintain more volume and take some loss leaders on the jackpots) but I'll wait until the whole thing is up and running to pass judgment.

I hope the TR is is helpful but I know I'm way too longwinded. If it's of no benefit to anyone then I'll tone it down. "The public gets what the public wants."

Write what you like. If people think it's too long or whatever they can choose not to read it.

Yeah, I didn't mean to make that sound like I'm walking off in a snit. Just that I have a really bad tendency to waste time getting my own thoughts clear in ways that don't benefit other people reading. I do appreciate the input.

The Hide's "qualifying flights" are not getting good numbers (one only had 12 players). This fact combined with the skill level of typical Hideaway tournament denizens means you have an excellent chance of qualifying for Saturday's final - they award 3 seats no matter how many players enter.

They have new chairs coming in early July, which anyone who has played there can cheer about - until then, ask for a cushion.

As AKQJ10 pointed out, the dealers are in a wide range of experience levels, but the inexperienced ones are clearly working to improve, and if you're half-way courteous about explaining something they're doing wrong they'll take the note and figure it out.

I recommend giving them a chance and telling them what you want to see - they're trying to provide a place that's comfortable to play in and that spreads the games people want.

Sorry, correction ... that should read *SUNDAY'S* final. There are 3 qualifying flights each day today (Wed), Friday & Saturday, and the 54-player final is Sunday at Noon.

Cops were called at Dragon. Details?

Not when I was there.

Is it true that many ex-Tulalip regs are now playing at the Dragon? For example Mister L*.

If this is the case, why?

I don't know who that is but it seems the PLO has some folks from Tulalip. I would presume a mix of proximity to Seattle/maybe customer service is better/(slightly) less hassle to park and get to the poker room. Eager to hear other opinions.

It's simple, players stopped running 5-5 and were trying to force people into 5-10-25.

It has nothing to do with the floor, staff, or security at tulalip. Valet is free. I think parking is easier there, since at Dragon unless you're early you need to park down 99. The majority of the player base got pushed out due to people trying to force the biggest game, so the 5-5 player base moved to 1-3 at Dragon. If folks start playing the 2-2 at Tulalip instead of 1-3 at dragon (which I would like to try to make happen), I think the majority would do that. There are good dealers and staff at Dragon, but the service is garbage unless you go into the bar yourself outside of weekends and there is literally zero security.

PLO players are going to go where the action is, but the bigger players killed the feeder games at Tulalip. Mr L* plays at the dragon, mostly NL but occasionally PLO. He's a great guy. I rarely see him at Tulalip anymore. I can list off at least 5-10 regulars from Tulalip PLO playing 1-3PLO at Dragon now.

I have heard one reason why people dislike Tulalip over Dragon, it's apparently colder than Dragon. Seems reasonable.

You have to think in these PLO players' shoes, as most of them, or at least the ones you want in the game, are not going to drive farther away if there is a closer option.

Tulalip was the only option in town for the longest time, not that it was doing anything "right" to attract players.

Plus if you look around RD's PLO players, you would see a lot more rec than in Tulalip.

Thanks. I appreciate the info. So I'm clear--this was the players who wanted to play the bigger game, not the room doing this, right? How much of the 5-5 base went along with this and now plays 5-10-25 instead?


Yeah, distance is by far the biggest factor for me and I'd venture to guess for most casual players.

Regarding parking, I agree Red Dragon's overflow lot is a PITA but I doubt it's a longer walk than it is from a normal parking place (even on the poker room side) at Tulalip. Probably a lot safer at Tulalip though. I always find valets even slower than walking to my own car but maybe for other people that's a point for Tulalip. Anyway, parking's not a major factor for me but might be for some.

I've never had any customer service issues at either but some ITT are very adamant that Tulalip isn't player-friendly, so that's why I thought that.

I respectfully disagree. The service is much, much better at Tulalip. The betting max fits PLO much better with $500 rather than $300. There is zero promotion impacting PLO, so neither comes in play there. And the room is neither as crowded or as loud. It's 22 minutes extra from Dragon to Tulalip if you're south of Dragon. Again, I emphasize as a priority for me, but doesn't seem most people, is security. Dragon has none. As for the quality of food I by far prefer Tulalip.

A very high percentage of those players you see at Dragon you would see at Tulalip in the 5-5 game. Now what Dragon has done is a fantastic job at is bringing in some additional new players to PLO. But these players are getting into the game for thousands a night, and whether it's 2-2 or 1-3 they'd play both. They just were probably unlikely of the availability of the games.

Without question, there are some stiff personalities that run the floor. I won't argue that. But, when it comes to rulings, game management, etc I think they're some of the best in the area. I do not believe they cannot improve, I'm not saying that. But they're strong and fair.

As for parking, pro tip - valet at the hotel side, not the casino side. You can get into the hotel valet in seconds on the hotel side and it's a walk without having to go through smoke filled floor to get to the room.

A lot of the 5-5 players who were starting multiple games were crushing the 5-5 games and started pushing for only 5-10-25. That pushed out the more rec players who can't afford to play that big. The room went from Thursday-Sunday always having 5-5 PLO running, sometimes as many as three games. Now, you might see one 5-5 on Thursday and maybe one on Friday-Saturday. The floor ran the games that the majority of the players wanted to play, I don't think they did anything wrong.

Tulalip wants their smaller PLO games back, they've changed the rake structure to help that. 2-2 is now a small drop vs time. With majority of the big game players in Vegas, we're starting to see 5-5 running a bit more.

I won't stop playing at Dragon, I enjoy it there. I enjoy most the dealers. But it's small and it's still fairly new room to pure poker so there are issues that they certainly could improve on.

I know I come off as bashing Dragon, I'm not intending to do that. I, personally, have a more comfortable experience at Tulalip from security, space, superb wait service, etc. The vast majority of the wait staff of Dragon is just collecting a pay check and could careless.

My goal would to see small PLO back at Tulalip and PLO to continue at Dragon. This would be a player base more that would bleed into bigger games as well.

If I attempted to organize 2-2PLO on certain nights at Tulalip, would people be interested in playing?

Which service, floor or food/drinks?

Tulalip floors are notoriously bad and make you feel less than dirt.

Tulalip food/drinks servers are nothing special and even if they are somehow better, they are nowhere near the quality of Fortune and certainly not THAT much better than RD.

Not enough so to justify going to Tulalip by any means.

For who? Winning players, sure.

Losing players? Smaller cap and worse structures are definitely better for bad players.

Half the Tulalip regs probably wouldn't dare to play PLO if the game does not have $500 cap. Same logic applies for even smaller players.

That's 44 minutes added to each trip. Plus crowded and loud are considered positives for a lot of rec players. Only "serious" players put on headsets and read iPads during the game.

I will give you that. But like someone had mentioned, these potential robbers would rather go for easy picking such as those leaving the place than to go for actual casino. It would be pretty impossible to ask everyone to hand over their wallets one by one and chips are worth nothing.

Once you are out of casino, Tulalip provides as much security as Dragon.

Pretty sure PLO players aren't choosing casinos over food.

Again going back to my distance argument, why would these same players drive back up to Tulalip now that the alternative is available?

Sounds like a positive reason to play in Dragon.

Strong as in stubborn, they do not listen to any opinions once they made up their minds.

Fair? It's always been known that regulars and those who are friendly with the floors get favorable rulings.

It's actually closer to get in from the casino side than hotel side - you can count your steps next time.

Smoking is always a problem in the poker room itself no matter how you enter it. It is an open room and players love to smoke next to the open partition by the slot machines.

Pro tip is not really a pro tip, because valet expects tip. I don't know about you, but I probably won't trust my car with the valet if I never tip the guy. Without valet, Tulalip parking during the same busy time as Dragon is much further away.

I guess if the argument is that you can park closer by paying for parking, then I can say that players can uber to Dragon and be even closer to the table than Tulalip valet.

Is it a surprise that winning players are in a poker room more often than losing and rec players? So when you poll for popular opinions, you are likely polling the winning players.

Polling the winning players and ask them what they want is the surest and quickest way to kill a room.

Oh yay, in other words, play in Tulalip while the big boys are away. GTFO when they return? That's really the approach you are taking with trying to build a player base?

Pretty sure that Tulalip staff cares less than Dragon staff...after all, many of its servers have been there since Day 1 regardless of their performance.

Plus I don't think you are actually bashing Dragon as much as you are proving the point that Tulalip still does not know how to build a player base.

They're stubborn, yes. Favorable rulings? I've rarely seen that. The rulings are usually by the book. Yes, you can present me with certain examples I'm sure. As far as counting your steps, you're nit picking to nit pick. It seems to me the lobby to the poker room is much closer than the front entrance through the slots to the room. But you're welcome to park wherever you like. My tip was faster valet service at the hotel side versus the casino side.

Don't tip, fine. I'm not telling you to. If you think you're safer walking down 99 than having valet get your car with no tip, more to you. Quite frankly, I don't think valet cares enough about your car to try to intentionally damage it over a tip. Their valet staff is consistent, they're good folks.

I'm not polling winning players. You're making assumptions. I'm asking people who enjoy playing the game.

And when they're back, there will be a small player base. Yes, the big guys will have the big game but I'm talking about attempting to create a smaller game player base. If someone looks at a list and only sees 5-10-25, they won't come up.

I'm actually trying to constructively help build games in the area, both at Tulalip and Dragon. You're going out of your way to be sarcastic with zero constructive criticism.

Your idea of building a game in Tulalip is by knocking down Dragon with baseless claims.

Your argument for Tulalip over Dragon:

-Parking
-Food

Rest are basically stretching the truth, such as security and the whole idea of building a game while big wolves are gone.

I want Tulalip to be successful as the next guy, but Tulalip has to make itself more attractive, and it is not doing that.

People have posted about security here. You're confident in the security there, not everyone is. You're confident in walking down 99 to the side lot with thousands on you, not everyone is. I said service, not food. The majority of their wait service is poor. I never compared anything to Fortune. I don't play there.

We're clearly on separate opinions of priorities. That's fine. Out of curiosity, how frequently do you play at Tulalip and Dragon to compare the two?