Zac, kudos for the good post. What a concept, play poker for the quality (or lack there of) of the games. And not because Tuesday offers $750 30 minute high hands.

That's a stretch...

I'm not aware that the Hideaway has ever raked $6 on a single pot. Could you possibly be confusing rake with player-supported jackpot (PSJ)?


Embrace the PSJ as the price of getting those weak players in. It's higher variance, but generally weaker players are willing to give up expectation in exchange for higher variance.

That exchange is the only reason poker works as a game. We'd all rather have people just fork over their cash to us without any variance at all, but poker doesn't work like that.

It's a little tougher to take if you have been playing for 10 years and never gotten any jackpot money. In my mind it's the same as rake.

Yo asshat, don't miss quote me

[QUOTE=AKQJ10;46528322]I'm not aware that the Hideaway has ever raked $6 on a single pot. Could you possibly be confusing rake with player-supported jackpot (PSJ)?



$4+$2 comes out of a $40 pot. As it so happens, many pots end in that $40-50 range. No good.

Additionally, imagine you open to $10, and get one call, and they fold to your c bet. Not uncommon. Bam, $4 gone from that $21-$24 pot (depending on who the one caller is).

All I can say is that whatever you were dealing to make that kind of money, it certainly wasn't poker.

q/q

[QUOTE=Bighurt52235;46530634] Hell yes it matters. For example, according to my math the zero weekend PSJ payout at the Tulalip for the 1/3 player is 1.5 BB per hour. (half the PSJ drop or $1; 40 hands per hour; 8 player average; 0.9% payout; equal distribution of PSJ wins)

Wow, is that why offshift dealers tip incredibly well?

God...I feel duped.

High hands do bring out players though, and bottom line is any promotion that brings out players is good promotion.

On another note, poker has quickly became an uber anti-social game, as if nothing is more miserable than sitting on a table full of people who hate life.

Sure has. Mike Caro is right, fun tables is the place to make money.

[QUOTE=SuperFinn;46532072]

Did you mean to quote my post? Because it doesn't seem related at all.

[QUOTE=Bighurt52235;46534706] Quote intended. Related cause the PSJ (in my example) and rake are significant in the lower spread games.

Yes actually it was. After looking at your previous posts you are obviously a career dealer that started in mini casinos in Seattle and has moved to bigger markets like LA and Vegas.

Not to be rude but I can guess what rooms you dealt in and which ones you did not deal in from 2005 on for sure.

You never dealt at; (All rooms in their hay day) Parkers, Goldies, Red Dragon, Hideaway, Diamond Lils, Caribbean, or Silver Dollar Mill Creek.

You probably dealt at; Club Hollywood, The Drift, Royal, The Moose, somewhere down south, palace or something like that.

Just a guess. I dont want to talk about what certain dealers at certain places make or made but a day time female dealer I am friends with used to make 700 after toke out at Goldies in 2006. She had a 4 day schedule and now owns 3 rental properties.

But once again, what do I know. I am just some fish

Its one of the reasons. Money flows around a kicking poker room, thats for sure.

I havent seen you in a minute. Still grinding the snowie?

I'm aware that WA law allows for an admin fee up to 10%, which is pretty much just a ruse. I haven't researched what different rooms keep. Are you asserting that Lil's and the Hideaway both take the full 10%?

I'm not versed in CA gambling law and have no idea how the jackpot works. Let's assume that it's all paid back to players.

Let's further posit that both bad beats and high hands impose a further tax on good players, because worse players will chase jackpots by playing hands they shouldn't.* Maybe that's another 10%.

So Lil's is effectively raking $3.60 (3 + 0.30 + 0.30) on a $20/40 LHE hand that has a river card. The Commerce is effectively raking $6.30 in the same situation.

That's an odd position to take, since one high hand is dealt every high hand period. Or are you referring to Monte Carlos (which in Las Vegas would be called high hands)?

I've hit both, but never hit the HH in the new promotional period when 10-12 tables are going.




If you haven't noticed, no poker market that existed in 2005 is as healthy as it was in 2005. LA and the Bay Area might come closest, but they're drawing from a huge catchment relative to the Seattle area. LA rooms are in love with BBJs. Bay 101 has almost none, IIRC. I wouldn't argue either as a reason why those places do or don't do well.

No one's disputing they're significant! Just that you can't lump PSJ and rake together as though they're the same thing. Higher variance != lower expectation.

If you don't like PSJs then don't play games with them if they exist at stakes you want to play. All else equal I'd rather not have them, but I accept them as the price of getting bad players in.

I'd much rather have something lower variance (high hand of the hour or happy hour) than a BBJ, where one lucky duck takes $20k out of the poker economy at once.



*Something else I love about the Hideaway's happy hour. If the HH is huge and we get dealt the right hand, a weak player is going to play it the same way I will. I'm not giving up jackpot equity by failing to chase with it. If the HH is small, though, there might be rare occasions I'd fold to heavy action but the weak player wouldn't.

Did you word the part correctly where you said that BBJs are a further tax to good players, because the bad players are chasing jackpots with hands they shouldn't be playing?

[QUOTE=SuperFinn;46535339]

I guess I don't understand the "hell yes it matters part". I didn't say one thing or the other about any such thing. Just pointed out common spots where large % of the pot is taken out.

[QUOTE=Bighurt52235;46538950] "Hell yes it matters" part means we are in agreement.

Yep. I quit playing poker at the Tulalip.

$500 30 Minute High Hands on Monday.
$750 30 Minute High Hands on Tuesday.
$1,000 30 minutes High Hands on Wednesday.
Zero payouts Friday through Sunday = Tulalip rips-off the weekend player.

While technically true that the admin fee of the PSJ is capped at 10%, I would argue that the effective "rake" is actually higher.

Were the account cleared on a regular basis, meaning say that at the end of specified period (a week, or a month, or what have you) the account were emptied and returned to the the player pool, I would agree that it was just a 10% fee, but in practice, a portion of the funds stay in the pot perpetually until there is a change in ownership, or an audit reveals the pot is under funded and a liquidation is mandated.

Take a common BBJ payout formula, 70% goes to the BBJ Loser, Winner, and Table share, 10% admin fee is deducted, and the remaining 20% stays in the pot to seed the next BBJ. I would say the 20% you never have access to is also a "rake".

I don't understand your question, but upon further thought I don't think I was correct here. I was correct that the "tax" when my opponent plays 33 or J8 for three bets preflop and makes a straight flush I wouldn't have played, triggering the BBJ, is real. However, that tax is drowned out by the large number of times my opponent cold calls my three-bet with 33 hoping to hit a jackpot and gives me great value. She'll miss a lot more than she hits.

Actually that factor alone might overcome the admin fee too, never mind getting more bad players in the room in the first place.

Im going to try and be nice here.

Yes they take all 10%

Yes it is. The different limits have their own BBJ and all is payed. They are capped and the excess goes to backups.

What the fek is this sht? I mean wth your math isnt even right let alone I have no idea what your talking about. $6.30 on a $5+1 drop and $1 jackpot (if you dont understand that just ask).


I like how you went back after making this post and edited the section of the earlier post I am referring too. Maybe you realized how stupid what you said sounded.

If you think Seattle's market lack of players is based solely on the economy then you havent been around long enough.

There are no games other than the stud8 game at Hideaway that dont take a PSJ drop in Washington.

Hideaway is terrible. Your liking of it just shows what little you do understand. Just being honest. :/

If there are 10 tables running for $1,000 HH promotion:

1000 / 10 x 9 = 11.11 equity per player.

And let's not forget the "mandatory" tip to the dealer. So we're looking at roughly $10.50 equity per player.

If a table plays roughly 20 - 30 hands an hour, that is $40 - $60 off the table in jackpot drop.

Doing basic math, each player is contributing roughly $4.44 to $6.66 to the jackpot drop per hour, regardless whether there is a promotion.

In other words, if the ratio of your playing time of non-promotion hours vs promotion hours is 2:1, you are essentially getting raked -$2.50 an hour playing, and that is on top of the rake.

Bottom line is that if you're only playing in a casino that is running some sort of promotion, you're benefiting from the drop, and the regs that play those games during non-promotional hours? They're paying for your equity.

You're correct. I accidentally said $6.30 when I meant $6.10. Sometimes people make clerical errors.

The 10 cents represents the "tax" when they hit the BBJ with hands I would have folded. However, I've changed my opinion on that tax, so I'll update it: $3.30 for Lil's and $6.00 for the Commerce.

If you drop the condescension, we can have a dialogue.

This statement is in error.