Sounds shtty, I'm assuming this didn't happen at fortune?

Unfortunately I don't think dealers pay have caught up with the rake, especially post pandemic. Still minimum wage plus tips.

Pre pandemic dealing round here was a path to home ownership. That'd be impossible now in the Puget sound area. I'm kind of annoyed that I know many dealers with homes, they should keep that shiz to themselves

(I own zero real estate)



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2x were at fortune but that's also where i play most of the time

last time at fortune it folds around to me in the sb and i ask the bb, a white guy in his 50s if he wants to chop or play

he says let's play, so i say ok and complete and then he raises me

i say to him "wtf" i just completed to check it down because you wanted to chase a high hand and he said he didn't say any such thing and that he just wanted to play

it ended up changing it a bunch, i had A2s and would have raised, he would have called, and then i would have cbet the KQx flop whereas he just raised and then checked down in position with showdown value



i said it was an angle, because everyone in that situation says "i don't chop" instead of "let's play" which is obvious code for "I want to check it down and chase a high hand"

guy got really pissy, threatened to call the floor - dealer agrees with me but rest of table is silent


guy gets up and leaves after about 30 min and only then does the rest of the table speak up and say they agreed with me - i ffing hate this west coast passivity - it just gives a-holes room to breathe they shouldn't ever be granted

I am completely on his side. He never said he wanted to check it down. He said he wanted to play. Just because that is "obvious code" to you doesn't prove it means the same thing to him. You can feel however you like, but he did nothing wrong. He probably got pissy because you accused him of something of which he was innocent. If he was in the wrong here, then you did not do a good job of explaining how this all went down.

greg, are you unfamiliar with how the old chop or farm high hands discussion goes?

you can't openly collude

in some places like colorado people say "chop or cheeseburger"

in seattle they say "chop or play"

this guy is a reg, he knows exactly how that is done


so saying "let's play" doesn't indicate whatsoever that he never chops, it indicates "i have a hand that could crack the current high hand and want to see if it runs out" and every single time this happens the sb completes and they check it down - it's not uncommon for the "let's play" person to refund the other player under the table afterwards if they also won the hand



so you absolutely need to say "i never chop" or "I don't chop"


i don't think you could possibly have the perspective you have if you actually played in these low stakes promo hunting environments where half the pool is there specifically trying to farm high hands

I'm not a reg anywhere. So I don't know what you and the regs there consider standard. But I do assume people mean exactly what they say, and try to never interpret what they say. I have had people say they want to call and run it out. And every time I tell them no. We either always chop, or we always play it out normal. If they don't like that, it is their problem. But I still think you were wrong to assume he knew what was implied, to you, by what he said. It just comes across as being mad that you lost the hand. I doubt you would have made your post if you had won that pot instead.

greg, i have nothing but respect for you, but you're way out of your depth here

you don't know how the song and dance is played in these situations

it absolutely was an angle, the entire table agreed



this is like me disagreeing with what it's like with regards to having media/threads/etc about you after winning the main event because i won a few bar league tournies so clearly it must be the same, winning a poker tourney is a winning a poker tourney amirite?




this would be fine, this is the acceptable way to do it, this is not at all what he did



i in fact did not lose the hand

Fair enough. I am not a reg there, so I don't know the standards. I guess it is just that I don't like the existence of standards that a non-reg probably can't know. Glad you won the pot at least.

Generally agree with Greg. At a min, I would not be popular there.

With 6+ players, BB or SB, I am willing to chop with any holding. In fact, I normally won't even know my holding until chop/play is decided. If it is play, I am looking and very unlikely am I limping. And I am not agreeing to check it down. If we play, we play. Including I will bet/raise pre-flop or later with a pretty high frequency.

I will also fold SB pre on crappy hands.

Also, you get to exercise the option to play 1 time. Once we play, we play all future opportunities. And I still am not checking down.


To me, once he says "Let's Play", we are playing. I EXPECT a raise if I limp (but again, I am more likely to fold the SB more than I limp because I expect to play a hand.)

you do though, you would not have run into this situation because you would have not said "let's play this one" but rather "I always play"

that guy was also a reg, he definitely gets asked that question a lot



washington definitely pretty awful though for low limit poker imo

player pool is probably better than national average by a decent clip and since nothing higher than 3-5 runs the good players don't really graduate to higher stakes nor is there much point to playing 3-5 since bets are capped

since it looks like i'll be out here long term i think it's time i learned limit because 3 bets max and $300 max wager and 100bb starting stacks with no match and no rules against ratholing (it's common for people to double up, ask for a table change and then go to new table with a much smaller starting stack because they oddly allow this)

so it looks like i'll be learning limit since those run pretty regularly and you can usually find a 20/40 or 30/60 game

you gotta understand 1/3 to 1/2 of the table is there specifically to farm high hands - which is 500 and 300 dollars every 15 to 30 min (not worth it they pull a ton out of each pot to pay for it - but it is "worth it" in the sense that the promo drop in seattle is so insanely high that it's madness to play when the high hand promo is not happening - fortune pulls in so much extra each year that they have a week long 24/7 high hand bonanza to clear out the excess promo funds each year

once the high hand promo ends the room clears out - it's incredibly popular and also a big reason why large preflop raises are called by the most speculative hands preflop by fish because they have something that "could hit a straight flush"

so this is a very common song and dance of both players checking their cards and if someone wants to run it they say let's play


otherwise, you make it clear by saying "i always play" or "i always chop"





as someone who comes from a non-high hand farming part of the country, i am like you and also accustomed to the standard "establish if we chop or play the first time it comes around and then we repeat that from that point on every time regardless of our hands" - i've definitely looked down at AA in the sb see that it folds around to me and asked if they chop and then happily chopped them up

however, every single time this happens in seattle, this doesn't work, because the bb will occasionally want me to complete and we check it down hoping he gets a high hand, so the song and dance is different here

the sb will either say "let's play" indicating he has a high hand worthy starting hand and is informing the bb he will complete and check it down or he asks if he wants to chop - where he's indicating he doesn't have one but knows bb may want to run it so he's giving him the option

in the event the bb wants to always play it out - the onus is upon him to specify "i never chop" or "i always play" so the sb is aware that we are not simply checking it down and adjusts his preflop strat accordingly instead of blindly completing

the bb was a reg, he absolutely knows this and did it to angle shoot

I have played in those kinds of rooms with promo chasers. Frankly those are bad for the environment. Also makes for crappy games but this creates certain opportunities. Just because they want you to limp and check doesn’t mean you accomodate them.

When in such rooms, even though I am normally a chop any two person I sometimes go to play any. Including I now raise wide pre from sb. A form of the old punish the limpers strategy.

Yes I know it makes one less popular with the reg promo chasers but who cares. I am not there to make friends with them. Now the recs I try to keep happy. Just because they want me to do something doesnt mean I have to and I make it clear I am not going to.

In places I have played, the recs and the promo chasers are the same people.

Dude, this is 100% you in the wrong. Verbal declaration has its own limitations for obvious reasons, accent, hard to hear, etc etc…

Plus there isn’t any hearing device recording the action, but there are obviously video cameras.

So no matter how you spin it, his non-verbal action will win out because there is actual hard evidence of it. Fact that you called the guy an idiot, you must be a fun person to have at the table…

so if i say "all in" and put out a $5 chip that means I actually bet $5 - got it



pretty sure i figured out that idiot's 2p2 handle

Sorry but Rick is correct. Verbal is binding. Tech what happens first is it but if close verbal will usually control.

In this instance it appears clear the verbal happened first so whatever dealer heard is the bet. The real idiot is the dealer for not speaking up immediately when the question was asked. Even if the dealer heard nothing or there was no verbal, dealer should have then counted the chips. Non bettor is entitled to know the exact size of the bet and dealer is arbiter of that

Of course you're right about verbal being binding, but if you think he probably said $200, and he put out about $200 in chips, it seems really silly to hound him about it. Just go with whatever he put out, or ask the dealer to clarify how much is the bet.

First Seattle specifically said that the non-verbal action was controlling.

And I have zero issue with the other player saying nothing. I thought I made it clear that the error falls on on the dealer. As soon as Rick ask for clarification of the bet, it is the responsibility of the dealer to clarify.

Rick thought he made have said $200. The chips put out were about $200. How is Rick supposed to know how much to put out? Should Rick reach over and count down the chips put out? Try that in some places, esp. underground games and you might seriously regret it.

It was also stated that clarification was requested. The dealer did not provide any. That is not on Rick or the other player. It is a dealer not doing his job.

Could the query been handled better. Sure. Should Rick call the other player an idiot. No. But I bet you have played enough to see this exact angle played out.

Mumble something that sounds like $200 but put out $190 (or $150 or $180 or whatever you think you can get away with. I call. I win, you hope the short stack gets pushed to me. (Since dealer claims heard nothing, this would happen in this case.) I lose and match your $190 and you immediately claim, 'I said $200 so the bet is $200'.

Is it a good angle, no, but if even once/twice a night easily a $100 in value a week. Which for some of these low stakes regs is appreciable.

I wasn't meaning my last post to be a criticism of you.

But are you saying the dealer should have answered the question even though it was asked of the other player?

Also I don't understand your first sentence at all.

i was mostly upset with the dealer and repeatedly tried to get her to make a ruling - she was clearly new to this and had no clue how to proceed

it was something i mentioned to the floor on my way out, "hey you should talk to her about that thing that came up" and they agreed

First sentence...The poster Seattle said that verbal would not be binding. I was clarifying why I included he was wrong. It also points out where he insisted Rick was wrong.

And yes, dealer should have answered as soon as clarification of the bet was asked. At that point, the dealer is the only one who can actually say. I am not saying that the better can't say but only that what the dealer says is what counts.

Assume better actually said $200 and put out $190 but now says he said nothing. The bet is still $200. The dealer maybe did not hear the verbal, in which case dealer should count the chips and announce $190. Point is that no matter what better now says, what dealer says is "it". Ofc, since multiple people claim they thought they heard $200, maybe the dealer corrects herself (I believe dealer was female.)

But if dealer remain adamant that nothing was verbalized, then even if the better says $200, the bet is now $190 if that is what the dealer insists.

In other threads here I've seen most people say that it doesn't matter how much the dealer says the bet is. If dealer says it's $100, player calls, then it is discovered that there were two obscured hundred dollar chips, the player actually will have to cover the full $300 bet.

At Caribbean Kirkland. Seen lots of bluffs with air, ppl calling with 3rd pair

Verbal in turn is binding at Fortune IIRC. Here people are both announcing bets and just pushing chips in

Older wrinkly slightly greasy 70s disco reject commented to the dealer Vu that I wasn't playing hands and that I was waiting until dessert.

Both dealer and the table ignored him. I'm not getting it in with these people yet, obviously people know each other - like dude who called raised all in 150 with like 78 on a 8qx board

Their USB power ain't working

I'd also say the service was the best I've had at a maverick location; a low bar, but the food arrived quick and the server actually delivered my diet coke.

They also have this wired Monte Carlo board with a bunch of spots where you need xx cards for a steel wheel

For example A5s hit a steel wheel for $1500. Hit a Steelie aka royal flush with pocket 45 and get 2400

There is some occasional great service at Caribbean yes, also a lot of trash waitresses and dealers too that cycle through. Current state of the food? Have had some amazing meals there.

The mumbling unclear bet at Fortune rings so many bells. The additional angle is that the other player has to speak up and clarify what the bet is while dealer and betting player give off no tells and sit there. Also weirdly stacked bets are often not broken down and announced by these dealers. Like an unclear stack that could be anywhere 130 to 180 or greens being obscured by red chips. It is beyond just rude. Only specific dealers do this for their regular/preferred players of course and mostly at 3/5. Please let this bother you even more than it does me and further remind you how 300 cap is bingo for 3/5 and move away to Vegas.