$15/$30 LHE going at Palace in Lakewood for the first time in years today.

Why is there minimal interest in spread limit games around Seattle? Muckleshoot has the most tables and still the single 3/5 spread game has maybe two tables maximum running at a time... Everything else seems to be limit. Where are all the tech gurus trying to blast off at the local card rooms? Thought there was more money flowing around here

Because tech gurus have to work.

Look at the spread games during Friday nights.

-4 games in Sno
-4 - 6 games in Caribbean
-4 - 6 games in Fortune
-4 - 6 games in Dragon
-7 - 10 games in Tulalip
-5 - 7 games in Muckleshoot

Everywhere in Seattle combined, there are probably 30+ games of spread on Friday nights.

What poke4fun said. Even if your just a working non tech guru stiff in this area, the brutal traffic and commuting time often make playing poker on weekdays -EV. If you care about getting 8 hours of sleep that is.

If you do not have a dog or family or long commute you are exempt. I have a dog, and i did not get him to leave him alone at my apartment while i grind low stakes poker. At least during the winter that is. When its warmer he can guard the car.

That being said Fortune gets 2 to 3 tables of 1 3 spread every weekday, not sure what the issue is soldier. Just show up and put your name on the list

20 DEMERITS TO COLA FOR LAZINESS

I checked out Fortune for a couple hours earlier before I had to catch a flight. Pretty nice room. Can't believe they give away a $250 high hand every 15 minutes. How are they making any money? Also seems like it makes the game kinda nitty but maybe that's just because it was a 1/3NL game in the afternoon on a Tuesday.

I believe they have a $3 per hand promotional drop.

They average between 40 and 50 hand per hour per table. Multiple that by the number of tables in the room and you can see how they make money. Plus the drop for the bad beat. And Omaha high hands end at eight.

No way they're averaging 40 to 50 hands an hour. Didn't realize there was a $3 per hand drop for the high hand but in hindsight it's obvious there would have to be.

The good news is that the actual rake in Washington is the lowest in the country; still mostly just $3 per hand I think?

Not even close.

$3 rake + $3 psj drop ($4 during promotional periods) is fairly standard. $6-$7 per hand is not the lowest in the country that's absurd.

Oregon 'player dealt' games are the lowest; a one time door fee of $10-20 and no rake.

Good dealers can average 40-50 hands an hour for limit games. You're correct though for no limit or spread limit - no chance a dealer is putting out more than 15 hands a down in those games.

FB

I don't think you understand how this works. While I'm not a fan of promotions, and sometimes the house keeps a small amount of it for administration, it is not the same as rake and is ridiculous to consider them the same.

Pretty sure there is nowhere else in the country that has as little as $3 in actual rake. If you think that is standard in other places, you haven't been around. In most California rooms it is $6 to the house, double what you pay there (plus $1 promo in most places). Vegas used to be cheap, now almost every place has $5 rake. 3+3 is far better than 5+0.

The Portland rooms are definitely cheaper (one I played at this year has no fees at all), but they are not casinos and not really legal either. Don't want to clutter this thread with info about them, but anyone who wants to know more should check the Portland thread. It's certainly an unfair comparison though.

bbj and promo rake should be considered almost gone as most are hit by small stakes loose players. and big jackpots are like getting lottery tickets for free. they seldom get hit by tight players so your variance on it is so huge the take out of 6 bucks is what you really feel.
and in small games it makes almost all players losers so that they dont get to move up and get better and last.

I would certainly prefer to play 3+0, but i do feel i get my $3 back in high hands. Playing NL i make fewer full houses and ****, but $250 a pop for frequent high hands, seems like i get those at least once per 80+ fully raked pots i win.

Again I'm no fan of promos in general and would prefer the drop not be taken, but I think the high hands spread it out pretty regularly, and despite being one of the tightest players in the game, I have taken home a decent amount of high hand money when playing in Washington. I would much rather pay 3+3 in Washington than 5+0 in Las Vegas. If it were still 4+0 I'd consider it a wash.

Can't deny that HH promotions draw in players.

Fact is that every casino in WA state collects jackpot drop. So even if Fortune is dropping $1 more, it still makes sense to play in a room that generates a larger player base.

A valid comparison is whether bigger player pool outweighs the cost of additional jackpot drop. I think so.

I track my PSJ/HH separately. I'll post some numbers when I am home again. I play the vast majority of my hours in $6 rake rooms with HH promos.

The 40-50 hands per hour was in the 20-40 game which generally plays at a faster rate. I agree the spread limit game does not get the same amount of hands per hour. I was tracking the hands dealt per 15 minutes as were judging the worth of certain high hands over that time period.

I play most of my hours at Fortune in Renton and Palace in Lakewood - both very High Hand and Monte Carlo heavy and both with $6 rake at all times.

I've played 1119.25 hours between the two places in 2017 so far and I've won $5593 total in PSJ and HH monies this year - if not all of that is at these two locations, it's pretty close.

Almost $5/hour ROI on the PSJ drop. Seems decent... probably above average even though I haven't hit anything big. Also, Palace does $1.50/hour rakeback, which you can add on to that number.

Also worth noting that I've been shut out on Jackpots/HHs 3 of the last 4 months... so on a pretty dry spell ATM.

I count it as $6 rake and take the promos into consideration separately since they change based on when you play. When I was unemployed and could get to Fortune right at 10am/12pm when the promo started, the promo alone was extremely +EV such that the games were effectively negatively raked for the first hour or two. Playing after midnight with no HH and only the weak monte carlo/BBJ board the effective rake was close to $6.

$5/hr ROI seems like youre losing at a high rate. Assuming you win at least a couple pots an hour.

Id love to see a breakdown of the return of the monte carlo board, obv a lot of variables, im making straight flushes a lot less often than most other players, for example.

I'm not arguing that it's profitable. But your claim here is confusing. $5/hr is losing at a high rate if you win a couple pots an hour??

Even if you win 3 pots/hour, on average, that's $9/hour to the PSJ/HH for a net loss of -$4/hour - not exactly massive. Toss in the rakeback at Palace and it's -$2.50/hour.

IMO, the overlay of horrible players these promos brings in makes it more than worth it.

Yeah, it wasnt worded well. Just meant that at even two pots an hour you're losing.
I wouldn't label that decent, but thats likely a semantics thing.


I do agree with you that it likely makes the games better due to the crowd that is attracted.

We're talking about "decent" on a scale of bad to terrible really. As a pro, I'd rather have the $3 promo rake than not because the influx of fun players makes up for it and I get a decent portion back.

Playing $20/$40 @ Fortune though, the promo isn't helping my bottom line any. I could do without it. People at that level aren't coming in for HHs and Jackpots.

if you play 2000 hours a year which many pros do than 4$ and hour is 8000 a year you are losing to the promo drop. how much are you making at those small limits after that.
and what would you really be making if you added that on to total winnings.

after 20 years of playing poker that is 160,000 dollars. and how many small stakes players ever get that much money together.

of course those numbers change greatly depending on each persons situation.
but its something to think about.