Isn't that the dumbest way to cheat? How do you get cards off the table without 10 players, the dealer or the eye in the sky not catching you? It's not exactly a covert technique like card marking.

"Jose L. Rodriguez, 46, of the 7400 block of West 20th Avenue, Hialeah, Fla., and Sandro Alonso, 38, of the 100 block of 77th St., North Bergen, N.J., were arrested after Sands security surveilled them and allegedly observed them switching cards during four separate hands while playing the game."

http://bethlehem.patch.com/articles/...poker-at-sands

Interesting moving cards gets you a 25k bail, but other other forms of cheating like saying Call and then just leaving if you lost, just get you kicked out.

Still good to see people getting busted.

what? are you saying people are leaving with the money they verbally committed to pot? no way that should be allowed by security.

The law in most juristictions does not allow the casino to force a player to put his money in the pot after a verbal declaration. There are a bunch of 2+2 posts/threads of times when this happened in various casinos. So I always, always, always make sure the money is in before I expose my hand.

good to know. i'll start doing the same.

“Three groups spend other people's money: children, thieves, politicians. All three need supervision.” - Dick Armey

Over the last year or so there have been three instances of reported arrests for cheating/stealing in the Sands Poker Room; one guy for marking cards, one dealer for stealing from pots and Friday's arrest of two players for passing cards. You might be tempted to think this reflects well on Sands for catching the thieves. I think otherwise and have said as much while playing in there.

As I and others have commented on 2+2 Sands poker floor people spend far too much time hudled together at the front desk or under TV screens. And dealers are under pressure from management to work fast and get as many hands dealt in a down as possible. Practically no one is monitoring the players or the dealers. And the thieves know it!

I have first hand experience with a cheat from AC who, along with his cronies, have moved almost all of their play from AC to PA. I have pointed this guy and some of his methods out to Sands players so that they can protect themselves. This guy knows I'm on to him and will NEVER sit in a game I'm in.

If you play at Sands you have the right to expect more from the floor than you get today. Until that changes you have to protect yourself.

wow I never knew this. And many times I will do exactly that, just say "call" without putting my chips in the middle if I'm fairly certain I've won. Didn't know I was violating protocol.

I think cheaters think Sands is new and an easy target. Mohegan Sun didnt catch these guys, Sands did. How do you know the dealer didn't catch these guys and inform security? Maybe all the players banned from AC casinos are now playing in PA.

If you get caught cheating in poker, the consequences are very bad. Most likely you are on tape and have no defense and you are usually facing multiples fraud counts. That's a lot of jail time for little guaranteed money.

I'm not discounting the possibility the dealer or a floorperson, rather than a player or security, spotted the cheats. But I am using this event to draw attention to the larger issue.

Based on your posts in some of the AC threads I think you and I play in a lot of the same rooms. So I will pose a few questions from another angle.

When/if you play any games in the pit, in any casino, do you notice that you and the dealers are being observed by a pit boss? I would think you have noticed this, because you surely are.

When you play in poker rooms other than Sands do you see the floorpeople milling about observing the games and the players and dealers instead of huddled at the front desk. Not all floorpeople do this but most do.

Do you find the Sands poker floorpeople equally attentive as their peers in the pit or in other poker rooms? I surely don't.

The beat cop on the corner or the security guard in a store is not there to catch thieves. He's there to deter a potential thief from even thinking of committing a crime. The cheats are choosing to play at Sands because they think the rewards outweigh the chances/risks of being caught. Some will lose. But how many are getting away with it? Every day. I can tell you for certain of at least one!

i'm very interested in knowing how the cheaters were cheating... and if possible.. who they are (description?). i'm referring to the post about the guy who moved over from ac. i'd like to be on the look out for it when i'm playing. this is exactly why i travel to casinos instead of playing the underground games in nyc every weekend.

In an earlier post I linked an article about the two guys caught Friday. I haven't been to Sands since the arrests and don't have any more info.

As for the AC-PA cheat I have mentioned - if the 2+2 rules allowed it I would post his name and a description. But the restrictions on that are in place for good reason. You don't have to live and play in fear that cheating in public poker rooms is widespread, but no matter where you play you should be attentive. If you observe a player or two doing unusual things on a regular basis give them extra attention. Look out for friends who always sit together, or sit at odd angles in their chairs which allow them to see others' hole cards, or chat during hands with "friends" or over the phone in a foreign language, or place their cell phone (with camera) in their cupholder, or always have their hands in front of their chips, or are sending and receiving an inordinate amount of text messages, or are "twitchy," or two players who never talk to each other while at the table but take breaks together, etc. I don't mean to imply that most people doing these things are cheats. But a minority of them are.

FWIW, I am not merely speculating about the player I know to be a cheat. I first became aware of him when I heard him pretending to be in a side conversation in a foreign language. I speak the language and know exactly what he said and the message he was passing to a partner involved in the hand. I have since observed him doing a number of the things I have cautioned you to be alert to.

Not his responsibility. Davey posts here. He can respond. Even though he probably can't say anything about any of the reported arrests.

PASANDMAN is a good-spirited optimist. It's not surprising that he should be as complimentary as he is of Sands. He doesn't have to defend himself for that.

Thank you cockpit. I am not sure what chefs angle is. He has claimed that I am a dealer many times in past when in the meantime many of the posters on here have played with me and I personally text them when I believe I can get a game going of their interest. If you read my past posts, they are for and some against things Sands has done. I am just on the side of the integrity of poker and keeping the game honest and non-confrontational with unclear rules. I try to post things on here beneficial to community such as when the bravo site first when up, I was the one to post it. I try to post things that many may not know such as the new tables are opening mid-February I posted a long time ago. I do like the Sands and it is my casino of choice but if they do something I think is wrong, I will quickly mention it on here.

Quote:
Originally posted by cockpit
FWIW, I am not merely speculating about the player I know to be a cheat. I first became aware of him when I heard him pretending to be in a side conversation in a foreign language. I speak the language and know exactly what he said and the message he was passing to a partner involved in the hand. I have since observed him doing a number of the things I have cautioned you to be alert to.[/QUOTE]

Cockpit, I know exactly who you are talking about. A regular player at the O8 game I was in told me he used to do the same things in AC and that he will not play with him either. As soon as I read this from your post, it has to be the same guy. The gentleman I play with speaks Spanish and said this guy will talk about the hand in progress to his partner in Spanish and ask what him what he had or other info not knowing this guy spoke Spanish also. He told me the villain also leans real far back and tries to look at his neighbor's hole cards as well. Taj and Borgata will not allow him to play there anymore. Guy plays in the 5/5 NLHE game unfortunately we can not describe him to alert others on here due to rules. I hate to post on heresay but you described him to a tee as to what I was informed about.

Cockpit, I know exactly who you are talking about. A regular player at the O8 game I was in told me he used to do the same things in AC and that he will not play with him either. As soon as I read this from your post, it has to be the same guy. The gentleman I play with speaks Spanish and said this guy will talk about the hand in progress to his partner in Spanish and ask what him what he had or other info not knowing this guy spoke Spanish also. He told me the villain also leans real far back and tries to look at his neighbor's hole cards as well. Taj and Borgata will not allow him to play there anymore. Guy plays in the 5/5 NLHE game unfortunately we can not describe him to alert others on here due to rules. I hate to post on heresay but you described him to a tee as to what I was informed about.[/QUOTE]

This tweaks me on so many different levels. If you suspect or even know that he is doing this, why would you not point it out to management? Don't we as poker players need to help police the games?

Cockpit, I know exactly who you are talking about. A regular player at the O8 game I was in told me he used to do the same things in AC and that he will not play with him either. As soon as I read this from your post, it has to be the same guy. The gentleman I play with speaks Spanish and said this guy will talk about the hand in progress to his partner in Spanish and ask what him what he had or other info not knowing this guy spoke Spanish also. He told me the villain also leans real far back and tries to look at his neighbor's hole cards as well. Taj and Borgata will not allow him to play there anymore. Guy plays in the 5/5 NLHE game unfortunately we can not describe him to alert others on here due to rules. I hate to post on heresay but you described him to a tee as to what I was informed about.[/QUOTE]


Here is what I don't understand. There are 2 guys who cheat in the 5/5 game. They appear to be well know. Why don't the players in this game call over the floor to watch play or refuse to play with these guys? I think the Sands dealers are generally good but some aren't experienced enough to catch this kind of behavior. The one great thing about poker is that the players are generally extemely knowledgable and can pick out shady behavior sometime better than dealers.

Remember unlike other table games you aren't playing against the casino, so the layers of supervision are less strict. Maybe the larger games 5/5 and up should be played close together so 1 floor person could be watching at all times. Maybe this level of security already exists using backroom cameras and thats how they catch the blatant cheaters.

if you know specifically how this guy is cheating, can you describe it without mentioning who he is? all the things you mentioned are general things to look out for. You did say he spoke in your language, that is why there is an english only rule... if he was telling his buddy who was in a live hand what he folded, did you ask the dealer to enforce english only? I play in the 5-5 game as well as the 2-5 & 5-10 so I would like to know if it's something more than cross boarding in a different language. thanks

Gonna be in the area for work Tues- Thurs in early March. Looking for 2-5NL or higher or PLO. Is there a regular game at Sands or anywhere nearby midweek?

Sands had a 2/5 NLO game last night. Unfortunately that is a rarity though.

Does the 10/25 game get going there pretty much every week? oticed there were two tables of it yesterday on Bravo. What is min? Uncapped??

Two games every Wednesday. Rarely on any other days. $1000-$5000.

I am a regular in the 10-25 and 5-10 game. Can someone please pm me the name and description of the alleged cheater. I will bring it up to the right floor people do it can get dealt with.

How're the games? What times the 10-25 start up in the morning. I'd probably take a trip down and donate a couple BIs

Lot of max BIs or everyone buy short and leave if they bust? Mostly reg's I'm guessing?

Website says 30 tables. Will they be in play tomorrow?